#176. Bringing Back the Human Element in Leadership with Dr Jennifer Nash

JOIN THE COMMUNITY

Episode Transcription

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 00:03

Are you ready to transform your life with the power of gratitude? Are you ready to step into each day with greater intention, energy and purpose? Well, introducing the ultimate gratitude journal, your personal guide to cultivating a life full of joy, positivity and mindfulness. So why is gratitude so important? According to the research, practicing gratitude has been proven to reduce stress, improve your sleep, boost your mood, and even strengthen your relationships. Imagine waking up each day with a sense of purpose, feeling more connected to yourself and to those around you. My ultimate gratitude journal is designed to help you do just that. With daily prompts, inspirational quotes, and space for reflection. It’s the perfect tool to make gratitude a daily habit. Each page guides you to focus on the good, recognize the little joys and appreciate the abundance in your life. And here’s the best part. For one week only listeners have a voice and beyond can enjoy a special 30% discount on the ultimate gratitude journal. Just visit www.drmarisaleenaismith.com/journal, or click the link in the show notes below and Simply follow the prompts. Don’t miss out on this exclusive offer. Visit my website now and start your journey to a more grateful and fulfilling life. Remember, a grateful heart is a magnet for miracles. So grab your ultimate gratitude journal today and see the positive change it brings. Remember, this offer is valid for one week only.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 02:26

It’s Marissa Lee here, and I’m so excited to be sharing today’s interview round episode with you. In these episodes, our brilliant lineup of guests will include healthcare practitioners, voice educators, and other professionals who will share their stories, knowledge and experiences within their specialized fields to empower you to live your best life. Whether you’re a member of the voice, community, or beyond your voice is your unique gift. It’s time now to share your gift with others develop a positive mindset and become the best and most authentic version of yourself to create greater impact. Ultimately, you can take charge, it’s time for you to live your best life. It’s time now for a voice and beyond. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 03:37

This week on a voice and beyond. We are thrilled to welcome Dr. Jennifer Nash, a leadership expert and consultant who has guided fortune 50 organizations such as Google, Ford, Exxon Mobil, JP Morgan, IBM, Boeing, and Verizon, to exceptional success. As the founder and CEO of Jennifer Nash coaching and consulting, Dr. Nash has dedicated her career to helping leaders connect people and performance driving remarkable results. With a distinguished 25 year career, Dr. Nash has held executive and leadership roles at Deloitte Consulting and Ford Motor Company. She has also served as an adjunct professor at the University of Michigan. Her insights have been featured in the Harvard Business Review, and she has presented her research at Columbia University. As a Harvard McLean Institute of coaching fellow, she continues to influence the field of leadership coaching. In 2023, Dr. Nash published her acclaimed book, be human, lead human. In today’s episode, Dr. Nash shares her inspiring journey from the creative arts to the corporate world, navigating the challenges of a male dominated business environment. Through her observations and research, she has identified the key characteristics of outstanding leaders and Dr. Nash’s mission is to reintroduce the human element into business leadership, focusing on essential topics such as parenting, role modeling, conflict resolution, self care, and the intrinsic work necessary for effective leadership. Dr. Nash also addresses the current leadership pandemic, discussing how COVID and social media have exacerbated this issue. Join us for a compelling conversation filled with invaluable insights and practical advice for leaders at all levels. Whether you’re a teacher, a business executive, or a parent, this episode is for you. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 06:46

Welcome to A Voice and Beyond today, we have our very special guest, Dr. Jennifer Nash. So welcome to the show. Jennifer, how are you?

Dr Jennifer Nash 06:57

I’m well, thank you so much for having me. Marissa, I’m excited to be here today. Likewise,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 07:01

because we’ve already had a little meeting and gotten to know one another. And I actually escalated this interview because I was so excited by the content that you had to share. Because even though some people may think, Oh, I don’t think this is really relevant for me, it actually will be for people who are in some kind of leadership role, whether they are a teacher and educator working for a fortune 500 company, or there are parents, even that anyone that they’re in an authority role. This is highly relatable for so many people. So people listen to this with an open mind, because you’ll be surprised how much you have to learn as I did when I was talking with Jennifer. And I want to start off before we start with your journey. Just reading through that earlier, I thought to myself, I mean, we’re talking about uplifting women here in the world at the moment. Did you as a woman ever feel like an imposter in any of these situations in the workplace? Or as you were navigating through some of these roles? You know?

Dr Jennifer Nash 08:18

That’s a great question. Because, you know, given the background that I had in, you know, dance and in music, and in foreign languages, for me to go into the business world, you know, in some ways, I really felt like an imposter. I couldn’t make sense of why things were happening the way they did, I didn’t understand why people used sports terminology to refer to things and, you know, and so I spent a lot of time just absorbing and trying to figure out where do I fit in this world? You know, the first job I had was as a customer service representative speaking French or an automotive company, and helping their dealerships, the the mechanics in the in the, in the dealerships, fix the vehicles. And so, you know, that was my foray into the business world. And it required a lot of listening. And it required a lot of communication. I mean, it required a lot of, you know, observing. And so, the majority of the time, you know, I was often the only woman in the room. And that sort of continued throughout my career I went is in, you know, the automotive industry to start with, and then I moved into professional services. And when I was in professional services, I was often the only woman in the room, you know, with a lot of men. And so, there was sometimes a lot of impostor syndrome happening for me, but I feel like it was, it was something that helped me develop a sense of confidence and a sense of, you know, pride in what I did and that I was good at what I did.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 09:43

Yes, you must share with us your journey from being that creative, where you started out, doing your dancing, and you were doing ballet and Kano, and somehow you found yourself in this corporate world. owed. And it’s a great story. Actually, I was fascinated to hear this, and I’m sure the listeners would love to hear this story as well.

Dr Jennifer Nash 10:08

Yes, well, you know, I, during undergrad, I was studying international business. And I wanted to have something that, you know, I could connect with that and get my passion for my languages involved. And so I decided to, you know, work on my French and my German and Spanish and a little bit of Chinese. And so my first job out of college, I was working for like a data service. And I was helping them gather information, like down at the courthouse, it was this random gig that I had. And one of the recruiters that worked for that data company, she noticed my resume on the table, and she noticed that I spoke French, and she said to the person who is across from her in the room, hey, like, I have this person next to me. And their resume says they speak French, I know you’re looking for somebody that also speaks French Do you want to talk to them. And that’s how I ended up getting my first job in business, my first full time job out of college. So if I, if I roll that back to, you know, having this background, in dance, and in music, and in foreign languages, you know, I think it really, it really formed my perspectives in a certain way. And it helped me look at the world very differently, I think then most people in the business world do, because there’s just a different way of thinking. So bringing that perspective, and bringing that uniqueness and that strength of mine into the business world, also made it a little bit challenging at the same time for me to feel like I fit for me to feel like I knew what I was doing. And for me to feel like I belonged in a lot of ways. And so to make up for that and compensate for that. And you know, in my feeling, I decided that I was going to just observe and try to figure out what was going on around me. And that led me to really, you know, wanting to understand more about the business world, and why people behaved in the way that they did, and what motivated their behaviors? And what thinking drove that behavior?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 12:08

What kinds of behaviors Did you observe that you were thinking? I don’t know why they’re acting out in this particular way? Or why are people choosing to make this decision, as opposed to that decision? What was going on in your mind? And what were you seeing,

Dr Jennifer Nash 12:27

you know, oftentimes, I would see, like, people would take credit for other people’s work. And that was such a foreign idea to me, like, I couldn’t help why they were doing that. And then and then as time went on, I realized, Oh, well, they’re taking credit for other people’s work, because perhaps they’re not capable of doing that kind of work and having that result themselves. Secondly, they want the recognition and the adoration from others for having, you know, delivered those results. And thirdly, you know, they were, they were looking at it as a lever to help them move up the ladder, and get ahead of other people. And so in a lot of ways, it was a very self serving kind of interesting kind of behavior that was taking place. And for me was, you know, coming from a background where, you know, a lot of things were partnered, it was a little it was a little odd, like I thought, you know, wouldn’t we want to collaborate and work together? And that way we could help everyone elevate performance. So that was, that’s one example of things that I noticed.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 13:27

i Sorry, I’m sitting here nodding and smiling, because that goes on in the singing voice community as well. And in the end in academia, yeah. Also, what path did you decide to choose? And how did that elevate you to being in in the positions that you found yourself in working with these amazing companies is globally well known, highly successful corporations.

Dr Jennifer Nash 14:00

So I like I said, I spent a lot of time in industry, I worked in the automotive industry for quite a while. And I decided to go back to school and get my MBA. And while I was doing that, the company I was working for, was going through a pretty difficult time, you know, economically, and the economy at that time was in a recession. And so the company was fighting to stay alive. And I was in my finance class at the business school at Ross School of Business. And I decided that, you know, the things that the CEO was going through at the time, you know, maybe it would be helpful for him to just have like some appreciation because he had a pretty tough job at that time. He was trying to keep the company from from going under. And based on what I had understood from my finance class, he had just taken out essentially, what he called a big home improvement loan to keep the company afloat. And in fact, he even mortgaged like, you know, the The logo for the company on the side of the building, it was that dire straits. And so I felt like, you know, he’s got a pretty tough job. And maybe he could use some appreciation, and my department had decided to put together an appreciation event because morale was low. Remember, it was a recessionary time, and people were, you know, a lot of people being laid off. And so I decided to write a note of appreciation to the CEO of the company. And I, you know, went through quite a quite a bit to get that note of appreciation to the CEO, I tell the story, in my book, be human, lead, human. And when the CEO received that note, he actually contacted me, and let me know how much that note meant to him, and basically thanked me for thanking him, you know, for doing a great job. And I just thought that was really so unusual to me, like at that point, in my career, I’ve been working for 16 years full time in industry. And that was really the first time that I had had a leader like, acknowledge something in that way. And he even took it a step further, because not only did he call me and thanked me for that, but he also wrote me a handwritten letter. And you know, at that moment, when I got that handwritten letter and saw my name with, you know, the heart drawn around my name, yeah, I just sat back in my chair. And really, I cried at that moment, because, yeah, it was the first time I felt seen as a human being in the workplace. And that really prompted me to continue studying leadership and to really understand, why is it that we don’t have more leaders like this? Why is it so hard for leaders to behave in this way, and what’s preventing them what’s getting in the way of helping them do that. And so I spent the rest of my MBA focusing on that at the University of Michigan. And then I went on, and I did more study at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio for my PhD work, and looked at what made leaders outstanding versus leaders that were average. And so all of that research, plus additional field research, after I graduated from Case Western, formed the basis for the book, and it helped clarify, like, the leaders that are doing these kinds of things that I call human leadership, you know, recognizing the human element in the workplace, and helping people be their best selves at work and deliver performance in that way. That is how I came to study when I’m studying. And then I started my own business. And now I help organizations bring the human element of business back to the forefront.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 17:37

Amazing, amazing work. So what do you believe are the attributes of a great leader?

Dr Jennifer Nash 17:44

Yes. So I think that right now, we are at an inflection point, with leadership as we know it, I think that we have been in this space of old school or old style leadership, where command and control was pretty much the default, and what people observed around them. So they felt that that was the default behavior, that they should also role model, right? Because we learned by mimicking Yes. And so since COVID, you know, the workplace, you know, all different environments have changed since COVID. And it’s drastically changed. And so what worked before doesn’t necessarily work now. And people want to have that autonomy, they want to have a voice in how they work and where they work, and when they work and why they work. And so, leadership is at an inflection point, because it’s now an opportunity for leadership to rethink how we think about and how we practice leadership, and bring that human element to the forefront COVID force leaders to realize that they needed tools to lead people and the toolboxes with those tools were empty. They have tools to lead projects and tasks, which is what they were doing prior to COVID and then they found out during when it doesn’t work very well. Ah, human on display right before zoom had blur. We saw everything the messiness of life going on, you know, kids walking across the aisle cast walking across the screen. And, and leaders realize, like, wow, I just don’t have the tools to deal with this. I don’t know how to handle this, because my hands aren’t weren’t working anymore. And I couldn’t rely on them because we’re not in person. And so I have to do all of this remote. How do I do this? I don’t have tools for remote work. I don’t have tools to lead people really. And so it became an opportunity for leaders to rethink how they practice. But there weren’t many places offering any kind of training to help them do that. And so now, you know, that’s what I focus on with with my work is helping leaders. Be those human leaders where they’re putting people first. They are listening. They are helping people feel heard. There. helping them feel understood. They’re helping them feel that they matter. They’re helping them feel seen. And when you look at people as whole human beings, not just an employee who delivers work for the company, but as a whole person, you help that person realize their best self. And then they bring their best self to work. And then they deliver actually above and beyond what you’re expecting.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 20:24

I totally resonate with what you’re saying about the change in the workplace since COVID. On two different fronts that impact on me, firstly, my husband ARNs, to cafes. And since COVID, he has had nothing but trouble with staff, so many problems with staff. There are a lot of internationals here in Australia at the moment on working visas. And so they are the ones that are taking the work, a lot of our own, people don’t want to be working in hospitality. So we are having migrant workers come and do the jobs at the moment. So we have a problem with transient population, we have a problem with people that don’t understand our work culture, we also find that people are a lot more aware of their rights than before, we are also finding that people are not as motivated, that people will up and leave if they don’t like something, if they can’t work under their terms, they’re not likely to stay. So he has had a massive turnover of staff since COVID, more than ever, his whole leadership style has changed. And he has become softer and more human where he used to rule with an iron fist before. And he often says, you know, I should go back to that when I ruled that way. When I led that way, it always worked. And now that I’ve become soft and fuzzy people. And then and then the other thing is, for me as a teacher, I’m finding that with the people that I lead as a teacher and the people that I mentor, there are a lot more problems associated with mental health issues since COVID. People’s students, coping strategies aren’t the same. People seem to be more in high alert that in that survival mode than what they used to be. So I totally get that. So how much of that good leadership now, whether you’re a teacher, whether you’re a business owner, doesn’t matter where it’s all one thing here for me? How much of that comes from relationship building? And how do we build those relationships? without crossing that boundary? Where you’re an employee or a student’s best friend?

Dr Jennifer Nash 23:07

Yeah, you know, I think 100% of it comes from relationships. And regardless of whether, you know, it’s an employer employees situation, regardless of whether it’s a, you know, socially anxious teen, you know, regardless of whether it’s a teacher student relationship, you know, people during the pandemic, you know, people were isolated. And we as humans are social creatures, we need that social connection. We’re wired for that. And when we don’t get it, you know, we have incidences of mental health situations happening. And we’ve seen since COVID, that anxiety and depression have globally increased massively. I don’t have the statistic in front of me right now. But it is a massive increase in that. A lot of that is related to COVID. It’s not because of COVID. But it was exacerbated by COVID. It happened before COVID and COVID exacerbated it. And

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 24:06

another interesting fact is also there has been a massive increase in the diagnosis of neuro diversity as well. Yes,

Dr Jennifer Nash 24:16

I you know, one of the authors that I my his book is on my list to read Jonathan eight, H AI di T. He has written a book around the the harmful effects of social media and phones, basically, you know, being tethered to your phone all day, and how that is impacting our brain chemistry, how it’s impacting our thought patterns, how it’s impacting our ability to connect human to human, and the dangers of that, especially for, you know, young people who are still developing from a brain perspective. It’s literally physiologically changing their brains. And, you know, he’s written a lot of out that and recently published an article that basically said, you know, you should extremely limit the amount of exposure your children have to phones and to social media.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 25:10

But you know what? That’s not rocket science, though.

Dr Jennifer Nash 25:14

No, it’s not,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 25:15

it’s actually not. So don’t understand how they allow their children to be on those devices. 24/7. And the other impact of that is, you know, we’re talking about relationship building, they’re not fostering great social skills, they’re not developing those social skills and developing that. How do I make friends? How do I communicate with people face to face? Yeah, as well. So in essence, this is not helping them become the leaders of tomorrow, either. No,

Dr Jennifer Nash 25:55

it’s not, we’re in a leadership pandemic. Now, we are headed for a very, very challenging future, if we are not able to get our teens and our young adults of today, into a space where they have developed human and relational skills, to effectively interact with one another, have relationships and be, you know, productive members of society and contribute in the workplace. I’m very concerned about that. And so, you know, this is all related to relationships. And when you look at how we learn, we mimic behavior. And so if you, as a parent, are on your device constantly, as opposed to interacting with your child, human to human one on one, if you are scrolling social media, instead of having a conversation with your children, or your spouse at the dinner table, your kids are noticing that your kids are now thinking, Oh, it’s okay for me to just keep one hand on the phone and keep scrolling while I shovel food in my mouth. And then when we’re done, we all go to our separate corners of the house, and we keep engaged with our phones all night. That is happening in a lot of households around the world. It doesn’t help develop any of these skills. And so, so as parents, I think, you know, there is a responsibility on the parents side to role model these behaviors so that your children can learn from you.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 27:22

So what do you say to the parents, then that says, all know, some people are just born leaders? You know, they don’t develop leadership skills, you can’t learn those skills. You’re either born a leader or you’re not how much truth is in that?

Dr Jennifer Nash 27:38

You know, I think it’s a nature versus nurture question. And I think there’s an element of, of both of that for leadership. I think that some people are born with certain leadership skills that they’re innately good at. And I There are there people who are, you know, born with a set of skills that maybe aren’t necessarily leadership skills, but they have a great interest in it, and they want to get better at it. And they choose to develop that skill set that will make them a very effective leader, and to make them someone that people want to follow. And

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 28:11

they do that through playing sports, and being perhaps the captain of their high school basketball team or through different activities, how would you suggest that they learn these skills?

Dr Jennifer Nash 28:25

You know, I think for kids, especially, I think sports are a fantastic way for them to learn teamwork for them to learn communication skills for them to learn collaboration skills, for them to develop relationships, for them to learn how to respect themselves and respect other people on the playing field. I think that sports are a great way for people to help develop that. I think that, you know, to a certain extent, you know, I know a lot of people are gamers, right? And they like video games. And so I think there’s a place for that. I think that you can learn collaboration when you’re playing a video game with someone else and tea with them, you know, on the same team to you know, defeat the bad guy or whatever, whatever the case may be, but not for 12 hours a day. I think it’s fine, you know, hour, half hour, whatever it is that your parents sets the limit for I think that should be fine. What happens is when you go too far down that path, that’s when it becomes destructive and harmful. Because you’re you’re eliminating that opportunity to go out and have a conversation with the kid around the block.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 29:28

Are you ready to scale and share your products or services globally? Well, introducing a voice and beyond the podcast that reaches listeners in 99 countries across 2185 cities. ranked in the top point 5% of podcasts globally. A voice and beyond is offering you an exclusive opportunity to connect with an internet national audience. This isn’t just about advertising. It’s an exclusive and unique chance for businesses and individuals to amplify their message worldwide. So whether you’re a member of the voice community, a health care professional, an author, a budding entrepreneur, or an established brand, seize the moment to be heard where it matters most, you can email me on info at Dr. Marisa Lee naismith.com, or visit the link in the show notes to learn more about this extraordinary opportunity. Whatever you do, don’t miss out on reaching our global audience. Because your voice deserves to be heard everywhere. Backing back now talking about ourselves, the adults as leaders, if we are in that leadership role, and we’re struggling with that role. And we may have a difficult student or an employee that’s under our leadership. How much of that repair work, then begins with us? As the authority figure, do we have to look at checking on ourselves and do the intrinsic work as

Dr Jennifer Nash 31:23

well? Yes, 100%, I, you know, a lot of people will say that leadership was just about all about leading others. But I have a little bit of a different perspective on that, I actually believe that you have to lead yourself first. And what I mean by that is, you have to manage yourself emotionally, you have to conduct yourself in a way that when others are looking to you for that example, you’re role modeling the behavior that you want them to emulate. So if something happens, and you’re having a conflict with someone, and they fly off the handle, and get mad and yell at you, and you as the leader turn around and yell right back at them, that is not helpful to handling that conflict, and de escalating the situation, and actually makes it worse. And so it starts to have this effect like this, as opposed to you maintaining your emotional equanimity. And you bring down the tone of the conversation. And that person then catches that emotional and they come down as well, until finally, you’re both in a place where you can be thinking rationally and talking rationally, and then have a constructive conversation about what it is. Oftentimes, what I find with conflict is that there hasn’t been clear expectations set. So yes, or somebody may think, Oh, this is what was expected of me. And the other person says, well, that’s not what I wanted you to do at all. I wanted you to do this. And so that clear communication and the clear expectation setting is one of the first things that is helpful to building that relationship on a on a firm, solid foundation.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 33:00

My husband needs to hear that. Because that’s one thing, he’ll say, you know, they’re not doing their job properly. And I say, Well, I think that may come back to the training, who’s training this person? Right? Do you know, if you’re not training them in your manager is Do you know what they’re doing in that training with that new employee, but I love this, you know, even for us as teachers, educators, and this would be with bosses. Yeah, I know, I have to do a lot of work on myself on a daily level. To manage my emotions, I have anxiety, I suffer with anxiety. I went through a stage a couple of years ago, where I was grieving, I was mourning the loss of my mom and I was back at work. And I had to do a lot of checking in. So I’ve developed a lot of self care practices, such as meditation, gratitude journal, going for a walk, exercising, making sure I get good sleep, trying to eat cleanly as possible. So I have a lot of things. So when I show up, I have energy. I am not caught up with carrying my own baggage into that teaching studio. Try, I leave my biases at the door and being very intentional. The days that I teach, I even write what my intentions are. For that day, it could be today I am going to make sure that I listened well. Today I am going to be the best teacher I can possibly be. And if I have a student that I know is a bit of a difficult student at that time. I set the intention that I’m going to fill my room with love. So there’s a lot of things you know, we can’t just turn up and expect everything’s going to fall into place because we We command respect. We demand that people listen to what we say, we have to it comes back to that relationship building better does 100% Start with us, and we’ve got to leave our biases at the door. We’ve got to be good listeners. Sometimes people just want to be heard. Exactly.

Dr Jennifer Nash 35:20

Yeah, exactly. Yes. And, you know, in a, in a society where, you know, technology has all these opportunities to bring us together, you know, and it’s wonderful for that. We’re more disconnected than ever, you know, we have come countries that are creating ministers of loneliness, because people are so lonely. It’s an epidemic, yet, the technology is supposed to bring us together, and it’s not helping alleviate the loneliness. No. Yes, looking at ourselves first is critical, regardless of what area and profession you’re in. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 35:54

And it’s really funny. Because quite often, to just going back to my husband, he’s going to think, oh, my gosh, my wife needs to keep her mouth shut. But wouldn’t be the first time he would think that, but he will often come home, and he will have a rant about an employee. And everything that he’s saying that he does not like about that person, are all the traits that he has. And I will think to myself, but you do that, but that’s you. It’s how you communicate their words that you use. Yeah. And so how much of the culture then in the workplace starts at the top? And do we as bosses? Or in that leadership role? Do we attract ourselves as?

Dr Jennifer Nash 36:56

Well, to answer the first part of the question, you know, the culture starts at the top, you know, leaders, teachers, parents, you set the culture, you create the norms for what the culture is supposed to be. And so you do that with your behaviors, what people see you doing right, your actions, you do that with how you think about things, because that informs your behaviors that you you role, model and emulate. And, you know, so often, when we see something in someone else that we dislike, oftentimes, it’s because it’s like we’re looking in a mirror. We see those things about ourselves that we don’t really like, you know, in that mirror and then reflected and so, so that is always something to keep in mind, right? Like, ask, it’s always helpful when something triggers you like that, to ask yourself the question, what is it about that that’s bothering me? Because in that moment, it’s all about you. It’s not about the other person having a problem or doing something wrong or doing something in a way that you wouldn’t have done it. It’s really about you. And your issue with either they didn’t do it the way you wanted them to do it, or you had an expectation that you expected them to meet. But you didn’t tell them what that was. Exactly,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 38:16

exactly. So when it comes to this conflict resolution, you talk about the seven tools to tear down walls of conflict. Can you tell us about those?

Dr Jennifer Nash 38:31

Yeah, so you know, there’s there’s tools that break down conflict. And I think first and foremost, we touched on this earlier during the conversation. And the first one is help people feel heard. We live in a very noisy society with lots of people talking with lots of different voices, overpowering other voices. With everything coming at us on social media, over the radio, on TV, we have, we are bombarded with things that vive retention. And one of the things that you can do that is the most powerful thing is to help someone else feel heard. And to give them your full attention. And you will find that when you help them feel heard, and they know that you are 100% Present. You won’t hear the same thing 10 times in a row, because they felt heard the first time. Yes. You know, if you think about that from a relationship standpoint with a spouse, right? How many times does your spouse tell you or how many times have you told your spouse? You’re not listening to me

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 39:36

on a daily? Right? Sometimes, every minute?

Dr Jennifer Nash 39:45

Yes. And so, you know, I think we have an opportunity there to really lean in and put the phone down, turn off the TV, you know, make ourselves completely present 100% They’re focused on this other huge and being who has something they need to share and want to share with us, and help them feel heard and respect them for that, and give them that gift of being present. And when they feel heard, great things happen, because then the energy changes between the both of you, and the relationship deepens. And there were there are opportunities to become closer, you know, every time we have an opportunity to connect with someone, it’s an opportunity to turn towards someone, or it’s an opportunity to turn away and close that connection.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 40:30

I love that. That’s so profound. So what are some of the other tools? That’s one thing, making sure that we listen and allow the person to be heard?

Dr Jennifer Nash 40:41

Yes, that’s the first one. The second one is, it takes that a little bit deeper. So now that you’ve heard what the person is saying, and you’ve listened, now, you want to demonstrate to them that they are understood that you understand what they are saying. And so that becomes more of a a process where you can use inquiry to ask them questions. Well, I heard you say this, is this what you meant, right? So checking to make sure they in confirming that you understood the message that they’re sending, right. That’s the second tool that you can use to help break down conflict. Okay,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 41:18

and what else do you have in your toolbox?

Dr Jennifer Nash 41:22

Yeah, so there’s four more tools. So the third one is mattering. Right? And with mattering, we want to help people feel like they matter, right? So there was an example that I share in the book around this, this child, basically, who allegedly took a gun to school and shot a whole bunch of kids, oh, and they found a note in this in this kid’s room at home, that was sad, you know, I don’t matter. I don’t feel like I matter to the world. And so part of the way they tried to feel that they mattered was to do something that got them attention, and negative attention, unfortunately. And so, you know, here’s an example of a person who doesn’t feel like they have any meaning or purpose on the planet. And they don’t feel like they’re worth anything. And so they, you know, they have some mental health issues clearly. And so what we can do to help people is to help them feel that they matter, right, we can help them understand how they contribute to society, and what they what they have to offer others, because oftentimes, we don’t see those things in ourselves, you know, we have blind spots. And sometimes it takes the people around us pointing out what what we do have to offer as a gift when we maybe don’t see that ourselves.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 42:40

Yes, yes. Okay. Any other tips that you may have for that conflict resolution?

Dr Jennifer Nash 42:46

Yeah, so one of the tips I had to is around appreciation massive. So, so often, you know, gratitude, and appreciation and conflict can’t exist together, you can’t have been feelings at the same time. It doesn’t, you just can’t, physiologically you can’t. So when we take the time to help people feel appreciated, and we tell them what we appreciate about them, and we tell them what we’re grateful for. That creates a Helio tropic effect. And then it creates a different energy level, and it creates a different way that we interact with one another. And, most often, what may happen is that somebody who feels appreciated and thanked because they did something, they will turn it around and think someone else like they pay it forward. And it’s the reciprocity rule. And it’s it’s a it’s a universal law that we have this sort of like the law of attraction. Yes. So that happens, and we elevate and then we can also remove conflict that way, because somebody feels like, so say, like, you know, classroom teacher, right, like they deal with 30 kids on a daily basis, and things are crazy. And they never feel like they’re appreciated, you know, for doing that. That’s a tough, tough job. And yet, if the principal of the school comes to them and says, You know what, I know that you have been just, you know, having your hands full, you’ve got a couple problems students in your class, right, like, you know, I just wanted to let you know that I really appreciate what you do. And I appreciate that you show up every day, and that you help these children grow and learn. And your sometimes that’s all we need to hear. We just need your that what we do is appreciated. Yes. Yes. And oftentimes there will be leaders in particular that think that oh, it’s not important because somebody’s getting paid money to do their job. So why should I appreciate them? Why should I tell them thank you, the salary should be enough. And I would say yes, it is enough. And this makes it even better thanking them and being grateful helps. And the escalates conflict.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 44:48

I love that. As a teacher, I appreciated when I because I always check in with my students when they first come in, I asked them how How they are, you know, how are you? Yesterday was first day back to this trimester? How were your holidays? And when they asked me in return, and they say, Well, how were you? How were your holidays? Did you do anything fun? I always thank them for asking. I say thank you, I really appreciate you asking because a lot of people are so caught up in their own heads. And especially when you’re dealing with teenagers and young adults, it’s all about them. But the fact that they’ve thought to ask, I, that is huge for me as that person in the leadership like your boss that you thanked, you know, just, I think I feel like I’m being seen, and I’m being heard, and I’m being appreciated by that one small act. That’s one small question. And I always take my students and say, Thank you for asking. Yeah. And so yeah, so all of this makes so much sense. I love this. And you also have a human leadership operating model. And there’s some core principles associated with that. Are they different to this conflict resolution? Or do you have other principles that you share? So

Dr Jennifer Nash 46:24

there’s actually there’s, there’s 10 principles that go along with the book, you know, and the first and foremost, one is that people themselves create value.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 46:35

People create value, yes, they

Dr Jennifer Nash 46:37

are valued, and they create value. And that is in contrast to what people used to think that like, oh, it’s the products and services that create value. That’s not the case. People do produce that we wouldn’t have the value. So that’s one of the principles and practices of the human leader operating model.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 46:56

Yes. And what is some of the other core principles couple that you feel that are really important to this model? And what and what may make it unique to other models that are out there?

Dr Jennifer Nash 47:07

You know, I think another one that really stands out to me, and that is fundamental is that this concept that relationships are fundamental to how we work. Relationships are the glue that get work done. And relationships are what power, the humans framework that I talked about in my book, you know, so in contrast to, you know, oftentimes what is thought of as the normal about relationships, that they have no place in the workplace, and that, you know, you shouldn’t have, you shouldn’t be spending time building relationships in the workplace. Like, there’s no place for that, because we’re here to work. You know, I offer a counter to that, that relationships are fundamental. They’re the reason why the work exists and gets done. And so that is also one of the principles of the operating model, there’s three legs of it, there’s a strategic piece, a human piece, and the relationships piece that is the foundation of the model. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 48:03

And how much of that relationship building then leads to trust? And in order to trust? Do people have to believe or think that they are dealing with the most authentic version of you? I mean, how much does authenticity shake that trust and that relationship building?

Dr Jennifer Nash 48:28

So trust is an integral piece of relationship building, right? We make a decision in, like, 33 milliseconds, when we first meet someone, if we can trust them or not. We evaluate how trustworthy they are, we evaluate how attractive they are, and we evaluate how likable they are. And that all happens within 33 milliseconds of meeting someone. What

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 48:54

is it just that the presence of somebody, how they carried themselves? What is it that we’re actually looking for?

Dr Jennifer Nash 49:02

So I think it goes back? So I’m not an evolutionary biologist. Yes. But it goes back to when we were in our tribes, we would look at someone and evaluate, are they a danger to us or not? And if they are, then we activated the, you know, self defense mechanisms, and protected ourselves in our tribe members and all of that, right. But if we looked at them and assess that, no, they’re not a threat, then it was okay to you know, cautiously establish some kind of interaction with them. Right. I think that is actually where it comes from. Right. The research that I saw in this actually had to do with headshots. And so if you have a headshot on a on a social media profile, for example, you know, profiles with that headshot are like I think it was 17 times more likely to get viewed, but on top of that, there was a 33 millisecond assessment of what I do business with this person. Do I like this person are they trust Shortly,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 50:00

I’m gonna go and look at all my headshots again. people you can trust me Don’t look at my headshots.

Dr Jennifer Nash 50:09

No, you know, there’s always caveats to that, right? So I don’t want people writing into you and saying, Oh, well, you know, this person was this and they did this. And there’s always exceptions to that, right? Because we have our own perceptions of what we perceive when we look at something. Yes. But in general, that is that is what people are assessing when they look at someone’s profile, or someone Yes, right. And so from a relationship standpoint, that trust is huge. Because without that trust, we can’t have a relationship with someone. It doesn’t work because we are in we are in a psychologically unsafe space. And then we aren’t able to show up as our authentic selves, because we have put on that veil of protection. Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 50:49

so you go into that fight or flight mode, when you’re around that person, you have your guard up, you’re in survival mode. Yes, it’s like you are entering into a danger zone around that person. Exactly.

Dr Jennifer Nash 51:03

That’s exactly right. So

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 51:06

how can leaders begin to assess then and improve on their own human and relational skills using your book as a guide.

Dr Jennifer Nash 51:14

So the first thing they can do, they can pick up a copy of the book and read it, that would be very helpful. It gives them a nice overview of what those human and relational skills are. And it wraps it up into a nice bow with a framework that they can then be put in their toolbox and take with them. The second thing they can do is take the human leader index, which is a complimentary assessment that’s on my website. It’s also in the book in a paper format, but they can take it on the website as an electronic format. And then that format will give them a nice report of where they fall with their human and relational skills capabilities. And give them some suggestions for where they could target if they choose to. And then Nicky create an action plan and how they want to move forward. So that assessment is valid, no matter what industry you work in, no matter what role that you have, or the the title that you have. So teachers can take that parents can take that young adults can take it, it’s for anyone who wants to see where do they fall in assessing their ability to interact with others, build relationships, be effective communicators, and be their best human selves possible?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 52:25

Where do most people fail? And how do they fix it?

Dr Jennifer Nash 52:29

Ooh, that’s a good question. Based on the assessment, the human leader index? Yes. Yeah. So what I see most often in the data is that the relationships category is where people fall short, the most. Okay? And I’m not surprised by that, because that is something that we are struggling with as a society today. And it also, you know, it is that something that’s taught in school, we’re not taught how to build relationships with people, we’re not taught how to effectively communicate is like, these things are just things we’re supposed to pick up somewhere, somehow. But there’s actually frameworks on how to do this. And there’s people around to help you and support you and courses to take. And so I think, you know, understanding where you fall on those dimensions, is the first step to building that awareness. And then you can take action. Well,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 53:22

and then you have the problem with burnout and disengagement. Where, today, I know, there are so many, not just leaders, but people that are in their jobs, and we’re hitting a crisis, people are stressed out, they’re maxed out, they’re burnt out, how do we address these challenges as we move into the future?

Dr Jennifer Nash 53:44

You know, it’s a great question. And it’s a systemic answer. I don’t think there’s just one silver bullet that will solve that, because there are so many factors that go into that, you know, a lot of the leaders that I’m coaching today, you know, we talk a lot about how do you delegate effectively? How do you prioritize your time effectively? What are you saying no to so that you can say yes to these other things that give you more time, and they recharge you and refuel? You, you know, you mentioned your mechanisms that you have in place, right to maintain your physical and mental health. Yes. And though a lot of the things that I talked about with my clients as well, you know, how do we help you operate at a peak performance level? What are the things we need to put in place for that? And so often, it’s some of the basics, right? It’s sleep, it’s adequate sleep, it’s sufficient sleep, its quality of its healthy food, it’s clean nutrition, it’s making sure that you’re feeding yourself three times a day and not working 15 hours a day, and not eating at all right? There’s just basic things that if we attend to those on that Maslow’s hierarchy there at the bottom of the pyramid, some of those things at the top of the pyramid become a little bit easier. Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 55:00

yes. And what about? So we talked about self care there and burnout and how we can build trust? What about empathy? Is that crucial in being an effective leader? Do we need to lead with empathy? Yeah,

Dr Jennifer Nash 55:18

you know, the key character, we know this from research from multiple research studies, that the key characteristic of an effective leader is empathy. Wow. And we also know from research that 90% of the differences between what makes leaders average versus outstanding, is their command in their control of emotional intelligence. So how they manage themselves, how they interact with others, how they build relationships, how they interact socially, all of those dimensions are what make that difference for those effective leaders. And so we often will hear well, that’s all that soft, fuzzy woowoo stuff.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 55:58

No,

Dr Jennifer Nash 55:58

it’s actually, they are the skills that are the hardest to measure and master. Yet, they are the skills that make the biggest amount of difference in our performance in in our lives.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 56:09

That is the big aha moment. And that one, I’m definitely going to share with my husband does not take care of himself, or your husband, your names come up again. I’m gonna fix this person, I’m going to the future of work and leadership has is going to evolve in the next decade and us to come what skills are the ones that are going to be the most crucial for leaders to develop as we navigate this new world of work? And I mean, we’ve even got AI, that’s another thing that’s been thrown into the mix. So how are we going to navigate all this as leaders? Yeah.

Dr Jennifer Nash 56:55

So you know, what I like to say is that the future of leadership is human. And what is going to help us evolve as leaders is understanding that the role of a leader has shifted, it’s no longer a command and control tell people what to do. It has really shifted to be a coach, it has shifted to be a facilitator, it has shifted to be somebody who helps people communicate, who helps people build relationships, and who helps people realize their best selves in the workplace, so that they can bring their best self to work, perform at their best, and be at their best in every other aspect of their lives. So when we look at the skills that we need to do that, it’s no longer, you know, managing a task and checking things off on a box on a spreadsheet. It is empathy, it is communication, it is collaboration, it is helping having those difficult conversations in a constructive way. It’s holding people accountable, and helping them understand what the expectations are, and being clear about that. It’s all around these skills that acquire a knowledge of emotions, and a knowledge of psychology. And that’s what I mean when I say we need to bring the human element back to the forefront. And those are the skills that leaders need to be effective going forward.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 58:12

Yes. What about young professionals who aspire to be leaders in their fields? What advice would you give to a young professional that’s listening to to us speak today? And by the way, I can’t imagine you being a boss. Because either you are a smiling assassin, or old wolf in sheep’s clothing because you so quietly and beautifully spoken and so calm, I can’t imagine you dealing with all these corporate people

Dr Jennifer Nash 58:54

I have worked very hard to being a equity, you know, any emotional equanimity Jedi?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 59:01

Like listening to you and Okay, you’ve worked with these people, they listen to you, you’re so calm. I could listen to you talk. Or maybe you get the men.

Dr Jennifer Nash 59:18

Yeah, you know, I think what advice I would have for younger professionals or our younger, you know, people in general Lead Gen Z. You know, first of all, pick up a copy of my book, I promise you, it is not boring. I promise you, you will be entertained. It tells stories. And it gives you examples of what these attributes and these qualities look like in real life. So you can relate to them. The more you can build your social skills, muscle, and the more you can effectively communicate, bring people together and build relationships, the more success you will have in your life on a personal dimension. Yeah, as well as on a professional

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 59:58

dimension. Yes. Amazing. So what is one key message? You hope that our listeners will take away from this? Or, or maybe a golden nugget from your book? Be human lead human? What’s one nugget?

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:00:16

Oh my goodness. There’s so many.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:00:20

I suppose if someone wanted to start making a change today, let’s make that the question. Okay. Rather than it being this so many, let’s just start with one simple thing that people could do today, to start making a change in the way that they lead. The

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:00:38

one very simple thing that people can do to make a change and how they lead today, it does not take any extra time it does not take any money would be to ask questions.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:00:50

That’s how you learn. Exactly.

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:00:52

And it’s also how we make sense of the world around us. So instead of telling someone, something, stifle that urge, and turn that into a question, and see what happens in the relationship, and see what happens with the dynamic and see what happens, how the energy shifts between the two of you.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:01:16

Amazing, it’s true, though, I’ve been an observer when there’s been a job interview going on. And the person who was doing the interviewing did all the talking. And the new hire, did not say a word. And they were hired. And then this person wondered why the new hire didn’t work out. And I’m thinking, that’s how you learn is by asking questions. Is there anything else that you wanted to add to this interview that perhaps we haven’t covered off on and you believe is really important for our listeners to hear? You know, I

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:01:54

think one of the themes that comes up quite often with my clients is this theme of, Am I good enough? Did I do enough. And I think for people listening, you know, I would share with them, you are enough, just as you are, you are enough, and you are a gift to the world, shine your light brightly The world needs you.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:02:17

In my gratitude journal, every morning, I always write, I start by saying, I am worth the effort. Always have been and always will be. Today, I value myself and all that I am. And I’m willing and prepared to do whatever it takes to make this happen. And that is the first thing that I write every morning, I don’t always feel that way. Don’t always feel that way. But at least I feel like I’m doing something I’m working on myself in some manner. I mean, I honestly feel that a lot of this does start on ourselves, we have to look within us, before we start looking at what is going on, at that person that we’re working with, right? In fact, we have to we have to do that reflective work, we have to work intrinsically, we have to take care of ourselves, look after our own most basic human needs, we have to leave our biases at the door, there are so many layers to this, and I love what you’re doing. I think you’re doing amazing work. And, and I I think it’s so cool that you’re doing this work too. And you’re dealing with these people, and you’re still so calm.

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:03:42

For some of the people who are really like on the edge, you know, I actually teach leadership through ballroom dance. So that is really fun for me, because it takes a certain person who thinks differently, to be open to doing something like that. And I just love that opportunity when people are so willing to, you know, challenge their own paradigms and think differently. They walk away from that experience going oh my gosh, like, I so many things in my life have shifted. And same person I was before I walked into that dance studio.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:04:15

So do you teach that dance class? Yeah, you teach the ballroom dance? Oh my gosh, Jennifer, is there anything you can’t do? I

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:04:25

can’t draw. And I can’t sing.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:04:29

Well, maybe we can do a contra deal. I’ll teach you to sing and you can teach me more about this stuff. Sounds great. I would love that. Yeah. And then we get to hang out more. Yeah, I would love that. Okay, that sounds like fun. Yeah. So we’re going to wrap this up. Where can people find your book? Sure. So

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:04:48

they can find my book online. At the Amazon. au website. They can also find it wherever they choose to buy their books, local bookstores can order it and get that Then there’s typically a couple of weeks wait to do that, but they can get that in. They just have to go in and request it. And they can also find me online. So my website is Dr. Jennifer nash.com. That’s Dr. Jennifer nash.com. And there, they’ll also find the human leader index that we mentioned earlier. That’s complimentary. Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:05:17

I’m gonna do that. That sounds like yeah, I would like to do that. Okay, and I’ll let you know how I go. Yes,

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:05:25

I would love to hear that. And maybe sounds like from what we’ve had a conversation around today that your husband might be interested in taking it to, we

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:05:32

could do it together. You could he can do his and I’ll. Sorry, I have to laugh. I won’t tell you why I’m laughing.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:05:50

This is a very serious conversation. We’ve had a lot of a lot of laughs through it. But I do appreciate you. I love the work that you’re doing. I’m so proud of you, as a woman, this amazing leadership work that you’re doing. You’re showing men the way. It’s incredible. Yeah.

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:06:08

Thank you. I appreciate you recognizing that. And, you know, the more we can share this message and spread this message, the more that will make change in the world. And that’s that’s my purpose and why I’m here. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:06:21

So everybody going get your copy of the book, be human, lead, human. And let’s all be amazing human beings and leaders, and teach our children to be the same. Lead by example. Yes. Well, thank you. This has been a most inspiring conversation. I’ve loved hanging out with you. It didn’t feel like an interview for me. It felt like I was hanging out was so cool. You shared some brilliant pearls of wisdom there. Keep doing what you’re doing. And thank you so much for your time, Jennifer. We’ll catch up for that singing lesson.

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:06:57

Yes, I would love that. And thank you so much for having me today.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:07:01

It’s been a total pleasure. Thank you. Okay, take care. Bye.

Dr Jennifer Nash 1:07:05

Bye.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith 1:07:06

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of a voice and beyond. I hope you enjoyed it as now is an important time for you to invest in your own self care, personal growth, and education. Use every day as an opportunity to learn and to grow, so you can show up feeling empowered and ready to live your best life. If you know someone who will also be inspired by this episode, please be sure to copy and paste the link and share it with them. Or share it on social media and use the hashtag a voice and beyond. I promise you I am committed to bringing you more inspiration and conversations just like this one every week. And if you would like to help me please rate and review this podcast and cheer me on by clicking the subscribe button on Apple podcast right now. I would also love to know what it is that you most enjoyed about this episode and what was your biggest takeaway? Please take care and I look forward to your company next time on the next episode of a voice and beyond.