#164. Crush your Cravings: A Mindful Approach to Healthy Weight Loss with Dr Glenn Livingston

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Episode Transcription

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  00:00

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Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  02:09

It’s Marissa Lee here, and I’m so excited to be sharing today’s interview round episode with you. In these episodes, our brilliant lineup of guests will include healthcare practitioners, voice educators, and other professionals who will share their stories, knowledge and experiences within their specialised fields to empower you to live your best life. Whether you’re a member of the voice, community, or beyond your voice is your unique gift. It’s time now to share your gift with others develop a positive mindset and become the best and most authentic version of yourself to create greater impact. Ultimately, you can take charge, it’s time for you to live your best life. It’s time now for a voice and beyond. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  03:19

In this week’s episode of voice and beyond, we delve into the challenging issues associated with food cravings, over eating and bingeing with renowned psychologist, Dr. Glen Livingston. As the CEO of a multimillion dollar consulting firm, serving fortune 500 clients in the food industry, Dr. Livingstone brings a wealth of experience to the table, having sold a staggering $30 million worth of marketing consulting services throughout his career. disillusioned by the limitations of traditional psychology, in addressing issues of weight and food obsession, Dr. Livingstone embarked on a decade’s long journey of research. Through his work with patients, and a self funded programme involving over 40,000 participants. He gained deep insights into the nature of food cravings, and over eating. What sets Dr. Livingstone apart in the weight loss industry is not just his professional expertise, but also his personal journey. Having overcome his own battle with obesity, and food addiction, he offers a unique perspective rooted in In firsthand experience, in today’s show, Dr. Livingstone shares his groundbreaking theories and research, which have also been featured in His brilliant book defeat your cravings, as well as prestigious publications such as the New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, and many, many others, as well as on major media platforms, including ABC WGN, and CBS Radio. Dr. Livingstone gives you our listener the unique opportunity to download his transformational book for free at www dot defeat your cravings forward slash beyond. You can also find the link in the show notes. Now it’s time to unlock a happier healthier you with my good friend, Dr. Glen Livingston. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  06:25

now what I also love about you is that you shared with me that you are a jazz Musa. Not that that has anything to do with that conversation. But I’d like to throw that in. I

Dr Glenn Livingston  06:36

was I wanted to be when I was a kid. Yeah. Yeah,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  06:40

well never say never. You certainly have achieved a lot over the years. But I would like to start with you talking about your own personal journey. So how did you go from being a psychologist like studying psychology and then entering the food industry? What made you change your career path?

Dr Glenn Livingston  07:03

Oh, actually didn’t necessarily change it. I had a dual career. My my ex wife, I was married for 28 years. And she travelled for business. And she was a focus group moderator. She was one of the original focus group moderators, when there were only a handful of them in the country. And what would happen is she was, you know, doing a group for one of the big food companies. And she specialised in understanding the emotional reasons for purchase. But she do it with these very soulful, creative, qualitative interviews. And the companies often depending upon their, you know, research philosophy, they didn’t want to take a $50 million advertising risk without having more quantitative information. And the problem was that you you can’t really ask people directly, you know, you use the American Express card, because it makes you feel you’ve got more status or, you know, do you did you, you know, buy a BMW because you feel like, more potent you. People want to think that they’re smart shoppers, and you have this thing called Rational purchasing consciousness and social desirability bias. And so it wasn’t easy to quantify. So I had to use these indirect methods where I use inferential statistics and observational design, to create the studies and analyse the studies and then advise the companies on what we thought we thought we should do. So I’d be the guy that quantified everything. And I’d be travelling around, you know, working out those studies. That’s, that’s what I get into that. But I was a child and family psychologist, I had an active practice until I was until about 2000. I had an active practice with a lot of people in it. And I was also doing the corporate consulting so I did both.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  08:52

Okay, so we’re here because we’re talking about obesity, food obsession, binge eating, and that’s the area that you’re working in now. So have you yourself or someone you know struggled with obesity or food obsession.

Dr Glenn Livingston  09:13

Oh, God, mercy, you know, I have six listeners don’t they don’t Okay, so I, I lost a word with a bagel in 1982. And I didn’t wake up for 20 years. I was almost 300 pounds and my triglycerides were over 1000. Then the doctors were yelling at me and I had rosacea and eczema and psoriasis and early Hashimotos had all kinds of horrible autoimmune problems, which mostly went away so they’re still present, but I don’t really have symptoms. And the doctors were telling me I was going to die by the time I was 40. If I didn’t do something about that, but I found that I couldn’t I I was a I was a kind of tall muscular kid. And if it worked out a couple of hours a day, then I was lucky I could eat whatever I wanted to. But when I got married and started driving two hours each way for graduate school and to see patients and you know that I get home and my wife at the time, I’m divorced now, but she would want to talk to me. And then we had to run the business together, I just didn’t have the time to work out. And I was getting older, and my metabolism was slowing down. And I couldn’t stop thinking about food anyway. And when I’d be sitting with my patients sitting with a suicidal patient making, I really didn’t have a pizza, I just, I couldn’t stop thinking about it. Thank God, I figured it out. Eventually, I didn’t lose anybody. Thank God, I figured it out eventually. And that’s when I knew I was in trouble. So I spent 20 years going to traditional roots. I come from a family of psychologists and psychotherapists. And when something breaks in the house, we all ask him how it feels, and nobody knows how to fix it. So I took a depth psychology approach. And I, I went to all of these different doctors thinking if I could only figure out what the hole in my heart was, and fill that up, and it wouldn’t have to keep filling the hole in my stomach. And I cried, and I screamed, and I confessed all my sins. And I lay down on the couch and tell them about my mother and went to group therapy and Overeaters Anonymous, and I had a spiritual journey. And I did a lot of things which changed me as a person, they softened me, they made me a more soulful person, it was a very lovely journey in many ways. But it didn’t help me with the eating, I get a little thinner, a lot fatter, a little thinner, a lot fatter, a little thinner,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  11:39

even after all that work.

Dr Glenn Livingston  11:40

And eventually, I realised that the problem was that there were several forces separate and apart from my personal psychology, that were creating the problem. One of them was the big food industry, I saw them spending 10s of millions of dollars to engineer these hyper palatable concentrations of starch and sugar and fat and oil and etc, toxins, and it’s all geared to hit the bliss point in the reptilian brain, like the brainstem, without giving you enough nutrition to feel satisfied. Now, the brainstem doesn’t know love, if this is the brainstem, this thing says, Do I eat it? Do I meet with it? Or do I kill it? It’s like a bad college drinking game. It’s the mammalian brain on top of that, that says before you eat meat or kill that thing, what impact is that going to have on your family and your loved ones and the relationships that are important to you and your tribe? And then the neocortex says, Wait a minute, before you eat meat or kill that thing? What impact will that have on your long term goals like health and fitness and weight loss, also music and art and spirituality and everything that we think of as uniquely human? But I’m spending 20 years trying to love myself then when the thing that’s responsible for food addiction, this feast and famine response, it’s it doesn’t know love? But that’s interesting, right? Is there an external forces? Right, so it doesn’t necessarily matter that had a bad marriage, or that, you know, my mama didn’t love me enough when I was a kid, or she dropped me on my head, and her mother dropped her on her head, that none of this stuff really matters. I mean, it matters to who I am and the struggles that I have. And in some ways, the difficult emotions can be triggers. But most people think that means you should eliminate the triggers. And there was an easier way that I didn’t know about. That easier way was to switch paradigms. And rather than trying to love myself then and fill up that hole in my heart. I decided to be the alpha wolf of my own mind. When an alpha wolf is challenged for leadership, it doesn’t say, Oh, my goodness, someone needs a hug, it growls and snarls, and it says, you know, get back in line or I’ll kill you or right? Yes, yes. So, just like I would do with my reproductive organs, or my bladder, which are both very powerful biological drives, both of those organs generate very powerful biological drives. I would, I would say, Look, you know, there are ways to express them. I can’t just go if I have to pee, I can’t just go whenever I want to. And I have to wait till the end of the meeting and take care of that I actually went before so please don’t worry. So we’re getting to be that age. And if there’s a pretty woman on the street, you know, don’t run up and kiss her, you know, there ways to approach people. And so, you know, that that’s what I did. And it was kind of embarrassing, because I’m a sophisticated psychologist and you know, all my credentials. But essentially, I decided that this thing inside me had to Get under control. And if it was gonna get under control, I hate to know when it was waking up when it was taking control. To do that I set up a kind of a trip wire, like a simple rule, so I could separate my healthy thoughts from my unhealthy thoughts about food. So one of the first ones was I will never eat chocolate on a weekday again, I’ll only ever read it on the weekend. And that way, if I was in a Starbucks, and there was a big chocolate bar in the counter calling my name, and I heard a little voice inside of me that said, you could just start again tomorrow, Glen, because you worked out hard enough, you’re not going to gain weight. Even though it’s a Wednesday, a couple of bites are not going to kill you. It’ll be just as easy to start tomorrow. I’ll say, Wait a minute. That’s not me. This is the embarrassing part. That’s my inner pig. And it squealing for pig slop chocolate on a Wednesday is pig slop. I don’t eat pigs up. I don’t live farm animals tell me what to do. And as ridiculous and crude as that sounds, it was the beginning of my recovery because it would give me those extra microseconds at the moment of impulse, like open up a space between stimulus and response. So that I could make a different choice if I wanted to.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  16:11

That’s incredible. To me, though, that has an undertone of just lack of willpower. self discipline, and shaming too. Yeah, so

Dr Glenn Livingston  16:26

let’s talk about that. Okay, first of all, I did not have to call it a pick, this was not something I was going to teach. This was something personal. It happened to have taken off because I wanted to bring a book out of the journal that I kept for all those years. And now it’s kind of known as the pagan millions of, you know, books online and everything. But I didn’t have to call it that. And I tell people it’s called the food monster or Okay. However, remember, loving that inner wounded child seems to be a goal separate and apart from taking control of this vital the origin. And you do need something because this is a survival drive. Your brain thinks that overeating is keeping you alive. So it’s very reluctant to give it up. Really? Oh, yeah.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  17:13

Oh, the eating is keeping you alive? Well, yeah, but because,

Dr Glenn Livingston  17:17

okay. If you think 100,000 years ago, when food was really scarce, you couldn’t find 10,000 calories for very little effort by walking downstairs to the convenience store, and then walk across the street and get another 10,000 calories and bags and boxes and containers, you would have to work really hard. And there was a chance you could die if you didn’t find food. And so when you found food, the learning would be very strong, and very primal. And if you look at the, you know, the changes in the dopamine levels, and like what actually happens in the brain, yes, motivation is very strong. It’s not just eating that makes you happy and motivated. It’s knowing that you’re going to go get it, it’s when you’re driving to 711 is when you’re driving to the pizza place. It’s the moment that you pass a pizza place on the highway, and it feels inevitable that you’re going to do it. That’s your brain saying this, this is where the calories are, even though calories are ubiquitous today. But it receives that amount of calories in such a small space for so little effort be a very scarce urgent opportunity. And it thinks that it needs that in order to keep you alive. It does. Okay,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:28

sorry, I misunderstood because you I thought you said over eating keeps you alive. Well

Dr Glenn Livingston  18:36

in the overeating does not keep you alive. Overeating can kill you. But the brain thinks that overeating will keep you alive. Because in the modern food environment. We’ve perverted the availability of calories to some extent nutrition but mostly calories, sugar and fat and starch and oil and salt. And it just was not available for so the brain just lights up. It’s like a drug it lights up and it says, Where else can I get this many calories in such a small space for so little effort. And it thinks that you have a unique survival advantage, because you can get to so many calories so quickly. So, so easily. That’s why it’s so hard to give up. That’s why it’s so it’s so powerful. Oh

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  19:21

my gosh. So what constitutes then a food obsession? And what is the difference between binge eating and over eating?

Dr Glenn Livingston  19:34

So I wrote an article about this on psychology today. Because it’s the first people question people ask is how do you diagnose whether you’re a binge eater or, you know, an anorexic or? And I say, first of all, I’m actually not out here preaching psychology. I’m preaching, training and education and coaching for a different reason. Yes, because I think it’s the wrong question. Now I can answer that question because I have tend to be a psychologist. And, you know, if you look up DSM five binge eating definition, you’ll find the criteria it has to do with frequency and the extent of self loathing that you experience and your efforts to stop and the perception that you can’t stop there. There are a number of things that go into that, that diagnosis of binge eating disorder. It’s good that we have that diagnosis, because then we can study what medications work and what particular interventions might work for that most severe form of the problem. However, look at the World Health Organisation statistics on diabetes and cancer and heart disease, and kidney disease even their way up. And mostly they’re up from diet reversible, or diet preventable problems. And if 40% of the population is obese, and you know, twice as many people are dying from heart attacks on a percentage basis that used to and 80% more people have diabetes. Don’t you think that people who have only 4% of the population has been cheating, but 40% of the people are obese. And most people have a little weight to lose and up on their own best judgement, don’t you think it would be wise to say, I’m not going to wait until I’m diagnosed with binge eating? Before I address this, let me figure out how I can just eat within my own best judgement. Especially because what I’m suggesting, as no pills, surgery, or powders or potions, it’s really just a a thought technique and a way of organising your mind with regards to how you eat and what you eat. So, you know, what do you have to lose by just learning how to eat within your own best judgement rather than waiting until you develop a full blown eating disorder? That’s what I that’s what I have to say about that.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  21:47

Yes, I mean, this problem is extremely prevalent, especially in Western society today. And people know that what they’re doing is essentially killing them, but they can’t stop. So how much of that is due to the food industry’s rather versus willpower, or by what you’re saying the two are connected,

Dr Glenn Livingston  22:17

but I’d like to address willpower for a minute, because there’s a misunderstanding, people think I’m saying excuse willpower. Willpower is the ability to make a good decision. There are only so many good decisions you can make over the course of the day. It’s like we wake up with a full tank of gas, that fire that fuels our willpower brand. And then every decision that we make not just food decisions, but every decision we make, wears down, spins and burns that gas, until by the end of the day, we’re really spent. And this is why nighttime eating is such a problem. That time we’re reading is such a problem. Okay, so if you know that willpower is the ability to make your decisions that what you want to do, is thinking about the difficult food decisions you have to make and make them ahead of time. So if I say, I will never have chocolate on a weekday, again, all of my chocolate decisions all week long, have been made. And I’m going to get to what causes the food obsession and a little bit, right. So I’ve actually eliminated the need for willpower during the week, as compared to well just eat well 90% of the time and indulge yourself 10% of the time, how do you know which is the 90% and which is the 10%? Since you don’t know yet, right? Since you don’t know you’re gonna have to make decisions every time you’re in front of something tempting, as opposed to deciding beforehand and not having to spend your willpower so, so it’s actually the opposite, this actually eliminates the need for willpower, except for the very early part of entering a new rule, where you extinguish your, your cravings, or you go through the extinction curve, because there we can talk about that extinction curve and how the brain extinguishes cravings through discomfort. And, you know, during that period, you will need some willpower. But the truth is, you won’t be burning it with decision making. So you should have more available to get you through that period. And then after that you won’t need willpower. Because eventually, the way it works is you make a rule never have chocolate during the week. And at first, you have a little honeymoon period. Then there’s a big burst and big spike and cravings. We can talk about why that is if you want to, and then it comes down. There’s a couple of more little spikes, and then the brain labels it as dormant. It doesn’t erase it. It labels it as dormant. The reason it doesn’t erase it is because this was a habit that you taught the brain for acquiring calories and 100,000 years ago, if maybe that behavioural routine. The classic example I use is a caveman following a monkey to a banana tree. Maybe eventually the monkey stopped leading him to banana trees because they got scarce. You know the season went on or the minetest got scarce. So maybe it stopped working the brain doesn’t want to waste energy sort of label the monkey as a dormant signal. So it’s not going to generate cravings when it sees the monkey anymore. But the moment that a monkey leads you to a banana tree, the moment moment that you indulge the craving, it comes roaring back comes roaring right back. Okay, so that that’s the issue about willpower. Let’s talk about the issue of shame.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  25:19

Can I just say something, just backing back what you said about decision making that we only make so many a day. And by the end of the day, we are fatigued. I so believe in decision fatigue. And the less amount of decisions that you can make on a daily basis by setting yourself up is a real thing. It’s like I decide what I’m going to wear the night before. So in the morning, I don’t have to make that decision. It’s like one less decision that morning, I already know what I’m going to have for lunch the next day, because they eat leftovers. You know, like all those things. And having even scheduling and planning, they help with that decision enormously, enormously. But that makes total sense. That is why people have problems with their evening meal is because of that by the time they’ve got to the end of the day. It’s like another decision. They’re in decision fatigue. So they don’t want to think about it. They’re just going to consume whatever is there and, and not even have to make a decision about the amount they’re going to consume.

Dr Glenn Livingston  26:32

It’s where you want to make your nighttime decisions in the morning. Figure out what what you’re going to have when you get home from work. Put it in Tupperware, have it sitting in the front of the refrigerator so that you remember as soon as you open it up into the microwave when there’s dinner for you. Don’t wait until you get home and you’re tired. And you say well, what am I going to eat? Marissa? It’s also why if you’re struggling in restaurants, that you could make a rule for yourself that you never go into a restaurant before you’ve decided what you’re going to have beforehand. What I will do if I’m going out to eat or something with someone, I’ll write it into my Google Calendar for that day. I’ll look at the menu online. Maybe I’ll call the restaurant and say if this is not available, what else could I have? And I’ll make the decision before I go that way in the moment of temptation when the waiter is trying to seduce you into this appetiser or that appetiser or this dinner or that dinner. This deserted that desert and the restaurants whole business model restaurant seducing you and overwhelming you with decisions. You’re you don’t have to do that you’ve already made what you need to do and you’re good to go.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  27:39

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Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  29:51

Do you think that you it sounds like there’s a lot of structure and You know, carefully thought out strategies around your eating. Yeah, yeah, is that because of the struggles that you’ve that and challenges that you’ve had yourself now, I’ll just share a scenario. Regarding myself, I actually had an eating disorder many, many years ago, my first husband committed suicide. And then so sorry, 15 months later, thank you. 15 months later, my father died. So it was to traumatic events, extremely traumatic events in a very short period of time. And I became the lead MC, I that I remember the night so vividly that I spiralled into this eating disorder. And it was because I felt that I had a hole in the pit of my stomach from that loss that needed to be filled. So I remember I ate a whole massive sponge cake. And I couldn’t stop eating, and I didn’t even eat sponge cakes. But I found it in the fridge and I’d started eating it. And I didn’t even realise I’d done until it was done. And then I felt so guilty that I went and purged. And that was the start of me having a five year battle with bulimia. And it was this constantly wanting to fill a hole in the pit of my stomach. And now fast forward. So many years later, decades later, I too, am very structured around food. And simple things like I know what I’m going to eat for breakfast every morning. And I tend to eat the same thing. Because that makes me feel safe. And in control. When I go out from I have coffee every morning, and I pack in a little container yay big one biscuit. And I had that one biscuit every day and have done the decades in a little container. And then I am very strict with what I eat for lunch. I actually don’t like going out for lunch so much. Because I like to eat leftovers from the night before. So I too have become really kind of rigid in what I eat regimen regimen regimented yet in what I eat, but I feel that gives me a sense of control as well. Is that a bad thing? Is that what you’re talking about?

Dr Glenn Livingston  32:42

I don’t think I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I mean, it’s possible to get carried away with it. And there, there could be a point where it was interfering with your life or taking too much energy away from other things. But most most people tell me that it gives them energy for other things because they feel all tucked in and safe. You know, and it’s like, we drive in a very structured environment. We have a lot of rules of the road, there are red lights and stop signs and yield signs and established things for us to do there. And because we know that we can actually enjoy driving, we we’ve planned ahead of time what we’re going to do when the light is red, what we’re going to do when the light is green, what we’re going to do when we can yield and as a result, they’re going to be a free flow of traffic and commerce through the city. There can be a free flow of socialisation. We can actually have a civilization because of that, because of that rigidity and structure that that regimentation. Now, if I were a city traffic planner, and I put too many red lights in the city where they weren’t necessary, then I would be sacrificing. I will be sacrificing the city’s freedom of movement. Right. So So your goal. If I put too few there, I’d be making a dangerous situation. Your goal is to optimise both variables. The analogy with food is you want enough regimentation said all those dangerous intersections are covered. I knew I got carried away with chocolate, I had to make a really chocolate. I also got carried away with flour and sugar. And so I had some different conditions that I use for flour and sugar. When I had them, I felt so incredibly safe. Okay, I knew what to do. And all I had to do was follow those rules and everything was okay. Then I could enjoy eating. Yes. When I didn’t have those rules. Right? Because when I didn’t have the rules, it was dangerous. It was dangerous to eat. I couldn’t enjoy eating because I was gonna get carried away. Like I might I might have four of those sponge cakes. Yes. Not playing a competition game but I could definitely

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  34:49

see, yeah, yeah, but it’s no but I do enjoy eating don’t get me wrong. I love going out for dinner. When I do go away on holidays and really enjoy food and soak in the cuisine everywhere I go. I’m not, this is not a military operation here. But I do have sought some sort of regimentation. Because, you know, at the end of the day, when you’ve had some kind of addiction, you’re all you’re in recovery, they never say that you’re healed. They say you’re in. So I’m a recovering food addict. So I do have things that helped me cope in my day to day life, that that keep me on track. But anyway, we have gone way on track you were going to talk about willpower,

Dr Glenn Livingston  35:42

which we talked about willpower and how it was related to decision fatigue, oh, the decision fatigue, yes, and how having a rule actually prevented you from becoming fatigued with decisions and gave you more freedom? Yes. And I think that freedom actually sits on top of willpower and discipline. For example, the car that I drive was designed by very disciplined engineers who ensure that when I turned the wheel 30 degrees to the right, that my car, my car was going to turn 30 degrees to the right. And because of that, I can drive all around the city, I’ve got a freedom of locomotion. Without that discipline, I wouldn’t have that. I was a jazz musician, as I told you last time. And without having studied my skills, and the structure of music, I would not have the freedom to express myself who wouldn’t have the freedom to do that. So I wanted to kind of illustrate that relationship that, you know, Jim Rohn said, a life of discipline is better than a life of regret. And Peter McWilliams said, you can have anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want. And I think those are two fundamental truths about maturity and adulthood, that if you if you want to be in a society, and function with as much freedom as possible, you’re going to have to adopt STEM disciplines, and you’re not going to be able to have absolutely everything, but you can choose to pursue whatever you want to. So I want you to talk about the shame because that’s a very confusing thing to some people. Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  37:14

please. Okay.

Dr Glenn Livingston  37:16

So first of all, shame can be very pernicious. And it actually is a root cause of overeating. We, the negative self critical voice that you hear after you make a food mistake, why can’t I stop eating so much? What’s wrong with me? I’m sick, I’m pathetic, I’m diseased, I’m broken. That actually beats down your confidence so that you can’t resist the next bench. And that’s actually the function of it. It’s your reptilian brain wanting you to feel so weak, that you can’t resist the next one. Now, we do need to be able to feel a little bit guilty, sometimes guilt is that an entirely dysfunctional thing? Like, you know, if you touch a hot stove, you need that pain for the moment so you know where the hot stove is. So you can make adjustments and

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  38:09

move on. Yeah, and you don’t do it again. So you don’t do

Dr Glenn Livingston  38:13

it again. Right? So so you can figure out how did I miss it? Yes, Hey, pay attention. It’s an attention getting mechanism. What you don’t want to do is say, Oh, my God, I might be authentic hot stove toucher. I might as well put my whole hand down on the stove. Because I’m hopeless. I’m powerless over hot stoves. Right? You don’t, you don’t want to do that. So what we’ve learned from that is that the healthy function of pain is to get our attention, then we need to be able to let it go. Same with guilt, the healthy function of guilt, like if you make a rule and you you break it, you’re not supposed to feel good about that. But it once you’ve turned guilt into responsibility, once the guilt has gotten your attention, you’ve asked Okay, so I missed the bull’s eye, by how much in what directions? What adjustments do I need to make? Once you’ve made those adjustments, there’s no purpose of feeling guilty anymore, you really want to let it go. So I’m not in favour of people feeling overly shameful or really stuck on guilt. As a matter of fact, I work with people all the time to let that go. When our children grew up in functional society. We are already using rules, unwritten rules, and helping them to feel better about themselves when they adopt a discipline. Right? Don’t you want to be a big boy and use the potty? Big boys use the potty. Big boys never go in the living room. Right. Now, is that shaming, or is that building a discipline that’s going to help the kid to grow up and function and go to school and be in society? And there are other philosophies of toilet training? Well,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  39:45

I suppose for me, like listening to say that okay, so I’ll just say someone who doesn’t know the answer to the question, but I would think it would depend in the tone that you would say that and The context that you would say it in Yeah,

Dr Glenn Livingston  40:01

yeah. And you want to emphasise being proud of the good behaviour rather than being ashamed of the bad behaviour, right? When, when little children learn to go potty in the potty, they’re incredibly proud. They feel like now I’m a big boy, now I’m a big girl, look what I can do. And we give them an opportunity to have a much bigger role in the world, they get to go to school. You know, it’s, I mean, there are there are daycare centres where you can wear diapers and everything like that, but to really have mobility and freedom and, you know, do the fun things that kids want to do to learn and grow. They, they’re better off when they’re when they’re toilet trained. And certainly, you know, when they’re going to elementary school and junior high school, they need to have done that. So what I’m saying here is that, adopting a discipline, making it part of your character being the kind of person that doesn’t have chocolate during the week, or that always puts the gym clothes out at night or never goes back for seconds. It’s something that people start to feel proud of. And it’s it’s a life giving self esteem enhancing process, not a shameful process if you use it in the right way. So I talked about that a lot in the book as people are concerned about that.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  41:15

Yes. So it sounds like a lot of the shaming comes from within as well. It’s not just external, its intrinsic. Yeah, people feel ashamed. They’re embarrassed. So it sounds like, you know, just backing back, and we’re gonna move on from this and talk about your book. But it sounds like these food industries have a lot to be accountable for what are these food companies?

Dr Glenn Livingston  41:43

Well, yeah, because they’re using plausible deniability, like, you know, saying, This ice cream is made with avocado oil. And so therefore, it’s better for you or potato chips, and me with avocado oil, or, you know, it’s got 50% less salt, which is good. But it’s still good enough salt to give you a stroke, which is just that, you know, and the, the rational brain just needs a little reason to get out of the way, because the reptilian brain can provide so much more pleasure, yes, that if you make it possibly deniable, that you’re self destructing, then that’s all what people need to go forward. And they put in things in the packaging that makes it hard to know when you’re hungry and fall. And they prey on your variety impulse by engineering a variety of different flavours into the chips or cookies on different assembly lines so that you’re constantly searching for more micronutrients. Because in nature, if you had a variety of different tastes, you get a variety of different micronutrients. So they’re pressing all those evolutionary buttons, it’s strong stuff,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  42:53

that is messed up, that is so messed up. Is this not unethical?

Dr Glenn Livingston  42:57

I mean, I think so. But, you know,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  43:00

I mean, clearly, because isn’t this killing people? I

Dr Glenn Livingston  43:04

think it is. I think it is. You know, I don’t think the people that I’ve met are evil, though, I think that they’re, they’re driven by market forces, and money. I was paid a fortune to do this kind of thing. 25 years ago, and I was on the wrong side of the where I was seduced by it. I feel guilty about it. I’m trying to atone for those sins down the road. So I guess I do think that there’s an ethical pneus about it. But I think the only way it’s going to change. If is if people make an active effort to think through what’s healthy and what’s not healthy. And they they stop voting with their dollars, because the company is going to chase the dollars unless there’s unless there are enough people that, you know, develop a groundswell of organisation and legislation to prevent it. So that’s

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  43:52

not going to happen anytime soon.

Dr Glenn Livingston  43:55

Not in our lifetime.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  43:55

No, that’s for sure. There you two, you’ve done quite a bit of research, that you spent several decades researching the nature of binge bingeing and overeating, with your own patience and a self self funded research programme where you had over 40,000 participants. So tell us about that work that you did. Sounds fascinating.

Dr Glenn Livingston  44:21

This was during the time I was getting paid a lot of money to do these big study. So I thought I’d do one for myself. So this was on the quiet. This is on the quiet. I did this myself. It was in the days that internet clicks were cheap. And I got 40,000 people over the course of about five years to come to my website. And they took a survey where they explained to me what they were feeling stressed about. I wouldn’t have to step in if they were searching for stress management or stress solutions. And I asked them what they were feeling stressed about what they couldn’t stop eating when they felt stressed. And I found that small correlations but significant There were people stressed at work who couldn’t stop eating pretzels and chips and salty, crunchy things. People stressed at home who couldn’t stop eating bagels and pasta and breads and soft, starchy, chewy things. And people like me who were you stressed in their marriage or feeling lonely or brokenhearted or a little depressed? Who couldn’t stop eating chocolate? And I thought that was going to be the solution. So I thought then, okay, you work on the marriage, or you work on the stress at work. But it didn’t really lead me to the solution at the story I tell is actually called my mom. Let her tell you the story before I forget,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  45:42

you did, but that’s fine. Tell us the story. I’d love to hear it again.

Dr Glenn Livingston  45:48

So I called my mom. And I said, Mom, I’m trying to figure out why don’t we go to chocolate when I feel depressed? I’ve got this big study that says that people do that. feel depressed or lonely? Or, you know brokenhearted? Yeah. And you know, I’m struggling in the marriage. And I do feel like that, and it makes sense. But why? How did this get set up? And my mom got this awful look on her face. And it’s awful. It’s entered her voice. She said, Honey, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. But when you were a little boy, one or two years old in 1965 1966. My dad, your grandfather was just out of just out of prison. And he disappeared for a couple of years. And I had idolised him. He was my whole life. And when I found out he was in prison, and he was guilty, I just had atomically depressed, I was just horrific ly depressed, wanted to sit and stare at the wall. And to top it off, your dad was a captain in the Army, and they were talking about sending him to Vietnam. And I figured I’m going to be an army widow with two small kids, because we were trying to get pregnant with your sister. And so I didn’t have the wherewithal to hold you and love you and play with you and you felt, you know, lonely or hungry or sad. So I kept a big bottle of chocolate Bosco syrup, and a refrigerator on the floor. And I say, Go get your Bosco honey. And you go crawling over and you’d get it out of the refrigerator and get stuck on the bottle and you go into a chocolate sugar coma. And it was at that point? Yeah. Wow.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:17

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, it’s

Dr Glenn Livingston  47:22

a sad story. So if this were a movie, then my mom and I would have had a big hug and a big cry. And I never would have struggled with chocolate again. And we did have a little hug and a cry was on Skype, actually. But yeah, we did have a metaphor for one. And I learned all about her ask her a lot more about that time and what she was going through. And it was very meaningful and helpful conversation to have. But that’s when things actually got a lot worse for me with my binge eating,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:51

really. So didn’t help it made it worse,

Dr Glenn Livingston  47:56

because inside my head was this voice of justification. And it said, You know what, Glenn, you’re right. Our mama didn’t love us enough. And she left a great big chocolate sized hole in your heart. And if you can, you know, until you can fix the loneliness or fix the depression, get out of the marriage and find the love of your life, you’re gonna have to go right out eating chocolate up, let’s go get some right now. And at that point, I realised that, you know, if you had a fireplace in the living room with a roaring fire, but it was a really good fireplace, that fire is an asset, not a liability. So it was the fire is your emotion, or your emotional traumas. People would gather around and tell stories and making memories and laugh and cry and hug. It’s only when there’s a hole in the fireplace, Something poked a hole in the fireplace, that ashes can get out and do damage. So I kind of adopted that model. And I said, What if all this time I’m trying to put out the fire understand what started it tried to be a detective or whatever it was, what I really need to do is just figure out what’s wrong with the fireplace. And it turned out what was wrong with the fireplace was that my inner pig was saying crazy things. Like, it’ll be just as easy to start tomorrow. No, it’s not the way that the brain works. If you have a craving for chocolate today, and you say I’ll just start tomorrow, and then you eat the chocolate, you will reinforce the craving and reinforce the thought. So you’re more likely to have a deeper craving tomorrow and you’re more likely to say, let’s just start tomorrow, tomorrow, snowballs downhill, you can only ever use the present moment to be healthy. So that that’s when I started realising I had to wake up at that moment of impulse and start asking, what’s my pig saying? How was it wrong? And how do I fix it? So I could stop letting the pig poke holes in the fireplace. That’s how that research study led me to write the first book that that’s the popular

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:43

Are you constantly battling with food cravings, struggling to resist temptation, and feel like you just can’t break the cycle? Well, I have some fantastic news. is for you. Introducing defeat your cravings by Dr. Glen Livingston. His groundbreaking book is your ticket to finally overcoming those relentless food urges once and for all. And guess what? It is absolutely Bree. Dr. Livingston is a trusted friend of mine who has been on my podcast multiple times, because of his wealth of knowledge in this space. And for this reason, I’m especially excited that you can access the book for free. defeat your cravings isn’t just a quick fix. Inside, you’ll delve into the science behind cravings. Learn how to dramatically reduce giving into those cravings by 85% or more and discover powerful strategies to think less about food and more about life. With over 1 million readers and rave reviews from 20,000 Plus satisfied customers, Dr. Livingston’s proven techniques are transforming lives every single day. Forget invasive surgeries, risky medications, or endless therapy sessions. With defeat your cravings. You’ll develop unwavering confidence in your ability to conquer your cravings and achieve your ideal weight without the torture of dieting. So why wait, don’t miss out on this life changing opportunity. Just go to www.defeatyourcravings.com/beyond and unlock a happier, healthier you right now.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  51:45

Is that the book that we’re talking about? defeat your craving to

Dr Glenn Livingston  52:04

fit your cravings is something I developed. Because, okay, I published the book in 2015. Got wildly popular, and when I knew what I was doing, because I was in marketing, and my partner was in marketing, that wildly popular got a million readers, what book is this? You can plug the book. I don’t want to plug that book as a sealed book. That’s okay. Oh, okay. Because I don’t want to I want people to read the new book because it’s much more accurate and helpful. Okay. Okay.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  52:32

Thank you,

Dr Glenn Livingston  52:33

you’ll understand why in a minute. I mean, people will figure out what it is if they really want it, but but the book I want you to read as to future cravings, because it’s, it’s has the benefit of the following eight years of additional scientific understanding experience with 2000 clients and I supervise 10 coaches. And, you know, I’ve been on 400 of these podcasts and radio shows, and I’ve had a lot of, I’ve been immersed in this for eight years, I wrote eight books, and this is the culmination of all that, get your cravings. The reason it’s different is that in the original book, I just taught people the way that I recovered, which was, hey, I’ve got this thing inside me. I can figure out when it’s active, if I can set up these rules. When the thing gets active. Let me figure out what it’s saying and why it’s wrong. And figure out what the right way to think, yes, I took away all my excuses, I fixed my thinking about food. That’s how I recovered, it made a really big difference. When I started teaching other people to do it, we got really fast at fixing their thinking. So, you know, the seven or eight years that I was running those programmes, that’s what we did. We call it rational refutation. We taught people to do it really quickly, we discovered that there were really only 40 or 50 excuses that anybody had anyway, it wasn’t 1000s like we thought it was going to be, and that there were answers, there are premade answers we can give them. So it got really fast to fix your thinking. Turns out though, that when and so our measurements at that time, not in a double blind, you know, objective third party study, but in our survey, follow up measurements, we found that people had an 89.4% reduction in overeating in the first month. And that was really, it was really incredible. When I checked it at six months, and then a year, it was more like 55%. And I didn’t like that stuff. Pretty good. Yes. Turns out that that was comprised of a group of people who kept using the technique, and they were more like 75 80% and people who didn’t who do and just as badly as say, the people who dropped out were doing just as badly as they were before. So then I said, Well, why are people dropping out? Because this is such a powerful technique. You know, I’ve been relatively fit and thin for almost 20 years using it. I have hundreds of testimonials. What Why would people drop out? Turns out that eventually you get to the point most people do, where they say okay, I don’t have any excuses anymore. You took away all my excuse. He says, but oh, well, what the hell screw it, just do it, I just really, really want to. So this, we call that the screw it just do it response. Then I said, Well, what’s causing that? That’s the problem, what’s causing that, over the last year or two before I actually went up splitting with a business partner and writing a new book, before I wrote the new book, I really researched what was causing that, it turns out to be something you’d call organismic. distress. It’s a lack of proper nutrition, like regular, reliable, proper nutrition, right? It’s fatigue, like not getting enough sleep, it’s not getting enough water. It’s being too isolated, not having enough of a social, social network. It’s decision fatigue, all of these other elements of self regulation, which is what most other programmes focus on entirely without fixing your thinking. All those other elements of self regulation turned out to be critical. To avoid the screw it just do it response. So I now understand fixing your thinking could be a necessary but not sufficient element of overcoming over eating. They’re all the self regulatory behaviours you have to engage in to find dopamine elsewhere. And, you know, recognise that you’re a fallible human being that you require maintenance and care, there are some rules you can’t make, you can’t say I will never sleep again, or I’ll never pee again. Because in a certain number of hours, your brain is going in your bladder, we’re going to make you do that. So transit, you really have to take care of yourself, you can’t ignore all that stuff, if you want to stick to a plan. And then if you do, if you stick to the plan long enough, eventually the cravings go away, especially the brain labels in dormant and then it becomes infinitely easier. But it does require an emphasis on both those things. And so defeat your cravings is about how you can, how you can kill your cravings, eating what you love, and get the most difficult cravings out of the way with the scientific understanding of the extinction curve and how to get them labelled dormant, you know, like 30 to 60 days for a daily craving. You

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  57:04

call this a backdoor approach.

Dr Glenn Livingston  57:07

Yeah, it’s it’s a backdoor approach, because I call it the backdoor to weight loss. The reason I do that is that we’ve discovered that trying to lose weight too quickly and getting panicked about it is just another form of organismic distress. So all of this stress all this distress, what it does, is it makes the brain more likely to perceive that there’s an emergency, if a hungry tiger was chasing you, or you know, or if there was a scarce choleric opportunity, if you lived in a feminine environment, then your brain would want to override your rational self, your reptilian brain would override the rational brain to say you got to get those calories, you just gotta we need them, we need and we need them. So it turns out that the panic about weight loss usually forces people to eat too little, you know, they go on a really strict diet, and they push their brain into what it thinks is a famine situation. And if you think about it, as we were evolving, it would have been a survival advantage if we lived in a feast and famine environment that if there was a long famine and all of a sudden calories were available, we’d better hoard them. So they’re actually create the creating the binge response with this panic. Yes, I tell people, you know, the fastest way to lose weight is slowly under to a week, reliably, reliably, reliably, reliably flood your body with nutrition at a slight caloric deficit. And try not to panic about losing weight, just better love yourself before you arrived. You’ve arrived and work your way on the journey slowly but surely, is

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  58:41

that why people can’t stick to a diet or an eating plan, as I like to call it because they tried to do it too quickly, or they don’t have enough information or it’s not the right eating plan for them specifically,

Dr Glenn Livingston  58:56

it’s often the case, that’s often the case, it’s also often the case that people are frightened of rules. And so they don’t really know where the bull’s eye is. So if you’re just going to eat well 90% of the time and eat badly 10% of the time, or you’re just going to try to eat mindfully, which is a good idea to eat mindfully. But if you’re going to try to manage everything by just eating mindfully, you can’t really do that in today’s society, when there are chemicals in the food that you’re eating that turn off your ability to know when you’re hungry and fall, when there are unnatural concentrations of calories and you know, all these excitotoxins that make you want more warmth, more and more and more. It’s it’s really, really hard to eat mindfully like I don’t think I don’t think a bag of potato chips is really set up to eat mindfully. I know it’s possible to do it. But you know, you’re really handicapping yourself from the outset. So if you’re frightened of rules, if you’re not willing to rely on them to distinguish between you know what, like my grandfather used to say, which was a Yogi Berra ism. If you don’t know what you’re aiming for, you’re going to hit something else. us. People don’t necessarily know what they just say I’m going to eat when they’re hungry, stop when I’m full. I’m going to try to eat mindfully. I don’t think that really works very well. I know, there’s a whole philosophy that says that it does. But I think in the modern food environment, it’s very hard to do that.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:00:15

I think the problem is with society. A lot of it is media, social media, and the absolute bombardment of information that we hear about diet, the next new diet, about these weight loss pills that are out now that there’s so much so then why would people be inclined to follow your diet or your eating plan or the information that you’re sharing? What puts you in a position that you say, Okay, this is going to work. So then

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:00:52

this is diet agnostic. And it’s, it’s largely common sense. If you kind of listen, I know, we went over a lot of things. But if you, we did read the big book, or listen through it, I’m not, I don’t know that I really invented every anything, I think I’m a very good narrator and organiser of information. There is no diet, this is diet agnostic. As long as you’re willing to nutrify yourself reasonably and not try to lose weight too quickly, then this can help you. This is a set of conscious and purposeful routines for installing character traits. I know that sounds like a big leap. But character is just what you do habitually at the moment of temptation. So it’s not that you’re going to have a rule in your head that says, I never eat chocolate on a weekday, eventually, you just become a person who doesn’t have chocolate during the week. And you don’t even really have to think about it. So this is a very serious attempt at a discipline to help you decide what kind of person you want to be with food. It can eliminate your food obsession, also, by the way, because if you know, you’re never going to have to drop it during the week, then your brain stops wanting to waste the energy. I’m trying to get you to have chocolate during the week. And that seems to be what’s responsible for, for the food obsession, it’s like walking with a kid past that candy store or a toy store. If they know they only get it on Saturdays, if they got good grades all week long, then they’re not going to have a fit, after a while they’re not gonna have to fit during the week, if you walk past the toy store. It’s the same thing with your brain. If it knows that it knows that the reward is not a possibility, then it eventually wants to conserve energy. And, you know, just take care of itself and let you leave you alone. So I think that people would want to do it, because this is really an anti diet mentality. It’s an anti willpower mentality. It’s a it’s largely common sense. It’s largely codified common sense. And also because you know, I offer the book for free, and they can get started without really much risk at all. And there are recorded coaching sessions. Yeah,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:03:03

yeah. It’s not going to cost anyone anything. Yes. You know, one thing you you talk about the chocolate not eating the chocolate during the week, about 13 months ago, I was diagnosed with COPD. And I made a decision after a lot of investigating different types of eating plans, that I would try to eliminate processed foods as much as possible that I would try and eat an anti inflammatory diet as much as possible to keep it under control to help manage it. And one of the things that I gave up, it was like a decision that came out of nowhere. And I loved fries. loved loved fries, especially McDonald’s fries. Loved if ever, we went out anywhere. Fries was my thing. I decided I was going to give up fries, because if I could give up fries, I could deal with anything like so. And it’s weird. When we go out. And there’s fries. I don’t order fries. And if they’re on my on my plate because it comes with the meal. I don’t touch them. And it’s the it feels like it’s a no brainer. Yeah.

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:04:28

Yeah, you you labelled it doormats, you became a person who doesn’t eat fries.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:04:34

I am a person that doesn’t eat fries. And I’m actually really good with that. Especially given how much I love them. And you talk about making the four categories of rules. And I loved this actually did it are good because, yes, there’s always the Nevers, the conditionals and the unrestricted. So how does that help people

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:05:00

Oh, it’s just gives them a structure to consider what you see my cat in the background.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:05:05

I love your cat. your cat’s been very busy during this interview. Oh, that’s very busy.

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:05:10

He thinks he’s the main reason for it. I know, right? He’s the star of the show is the star. That’s Theo. Everybody. Let’s do Yeah, love the. So it helps to consider if there’s anything you’d never liked to have, again, because most people never think about that. And you don’t ever have to eat french fries. Again, there’s no doctor, this is going to diagnose you with a french fry deficiency. Right? It’s on

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:05:33

my Nevers. Yes, my nevers is fries.

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:05:37

I’m not a medical doctor. So maybe I can’t say this. But I can’t imagine that there is a medical reason that you have to eat french fries. And most people just never consider it. Never, I could never have happened. No, you don’t have to have it always helps you to consider more positive routines that are adding or building into your health rather than things that you’re giving up. So I always have two glasses of spring water before I start my day. Or I always, I always have a big green smoothie before I have anything solid to eat during the day, you start to crowd out the unhealthy food rather than having to give any of it up, you just start to credit out. conditionals remind you that the brain is complex. And if you don’t want to give something up, you can attempt to bind it to a very specific context or condition. Like I only ever have chocolate on the weekend, or I only have pretzels at major league baseball stadiums. And unconditional just remind you that there should be something you can have when you’re hungry. If you really need to, just kind of helps you to think that author so that’s why that’s why I came up with the four categories of foods.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:06:49

Yeah, my conditionals were pasture alcohol and desert.

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:06:54

And how did you? How did you work that out? What were your conditional rules

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:06:58

based on the fact that I’m trying to eat like, less unprocessed foods, I’ve thought that pasture and anything can most things contained in desserts will probably be ruled out and tried to keep refined sugars down and alcohol. Because when I drink alcohol, it causes me to overheat my body temperature increases and I have trouble sleeping. So I thought no, I need to limit alcohol and I just have alcohol on the weekends. A limited amount of yet. So I usually so this is it’s not a neighbour. But usually, I’d say 99% of the time no alcohol Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. There you go. So that’s how it works. Yeah, that’s how it works. Okay, we’re going to start wrapping this up,

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:07:58

I just want people to know, to start with one simple rule, something you couldn’t would do. That isn’t too much of a burden. You know, I won’t go back for seconds, I will never read standing up. Or I only eat only eat food when I’m sitting at the table. Or I’ll always take three deep breaths before a meal. Something that would start with a low bar that you put in would do that, you know, you’re going to do consistently, because I want to trigger your identity function, I want you to be able to say I’m someone who always has a green smoothie in the morning. I’m someone who always puts their gym clothes out before I go to bed. I’m someone who never goes back for seconds. When you bring observe you having a win consistently like that, it starts to say I’m I must be the kind of person who doesn’t. Who doesn’t do that. Wonder what else that kind of person does know. And it becomes less about white knuckling it and filling the hype, like you have a bunch of meme policemen in your head, that you have to be careful around and it becomes more like, this is the person I want to become. So you start with one simple rule. Usually, if there’s no medical emergency, don’t worry about weight loss for a couple of weeks. Once you feel like you’re winning the game, once you make this rule, you’ll have that part of you that wants to break it and you’ll say, well, that’s my inner food monster. And it’s moaning for Monster mush. Why does it want me to break the rules? And why is it wrong? And you’ll figure out why it’s wrong and write it down. You’ll start to make some progress. So there’s some power that you didn’t know that you had. And with that in hand, you can make adjustments and learn to technique further and work it out. So you get to the weight that you want to slowly, slowly but surely. So once we make sure we got that in one simple rule.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:09:39

Yes. So what’s your legacy here?

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:09:42

What’s my legacy? Yes, I would like to help a million people a year to stop overeating. That’s I would still like my life was worthwhile. If I did that. That would be massive. That would be massive. And we’re on the way we’re getting there around the way really,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:09:58

you You’re getting close to a million people. Well,

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:10:02

no, I mean, we’ve had a million readers. I have a Psychology Today calm has had a million readers, actual paying clients has been about 2000. You know, I’ve been in about 400 podcasts there. But this

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:10:15

one’s the best one.

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:10:17

This is the best one ever. Yes. I mean, I’m not gonna go on any others anymore. This is just, it’s just where I have to be. Okay, Marissa, you’re so cool. Oh, thank

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:10:30

you. So are you so are you. And we’re going to share your links with our listeners, especially to the free book, defeat

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:10:41

your defeat your cravings.com. Click the big blue button, you’ll get a free copy of the book and Kindle nook or PDF format, you’ll get a copy of foodplant starter templates for any dietary philosophy and you will get a better recorded full length coaching sessions. So you can see how this all works. Really, you get those

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:10:58

as well, for free. Wow. That’s incredible. Amazing. All right. Well, thank you for your time. Dr. Glenn, it has been such a pleasure having you on the show. And I look forward to seeing you and Theo again sometime in the future. Yeah, hope to catch up and hear how you going and love to hear when you get close to that million.

Dr Glenn Livingston  1:11:21

Okay, you got it.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:11:22

Take it easy. Thank you for your time. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show. I’ll talk to you then. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of a voice and beyond. I hope you enjoyed it as now is an important time for you to invest in your own self care, personal growth and education. Use every day as an opportunity to learn and to grow, so you can show up feeling empowered and ready to live your best life. If you know someone who will also be inspired by this episode, please be sure to copy and paste the link and share it with them. Or share it on social media and use the hashtag a voice and beyond. I promise you I am committed to bringing you more inspiration and conversations just like this one every week. And if you’d like to help me, please rate and review this podcast and cheer me on by clicking the subscribe button on Apple podcast right now. I would also love to know what it is that you most enjoyed about this episode and what was your biggest takeaway? Please take care and I look forward to your company next time on the next episode of a voice and beyond.