#174. Embracing Neurodiversity in Voice Pedagogy with Dr. Shannon Coates Part 2

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Episode Transcription

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  00:00

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Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  02:26

It’s Marissa Lee here, and I’m so excited to be sharing today’s interview round episode with you. In these episodes, our brilliant lineup of guests will include healthcare practitioners, voice educators, and other professionals who will share their stories, knowledge and experiences within their specialized fields to empower you to live your best life. Whether you’re a member of the voice, community, or beyond your voice is your unique gift. It’s time now to share your gift with others develop a positive mindset and become the best and most authentic version of yourself to create greater impact. Ultimately, you can take charge, it’s time for you to live your best life. It’s time now for a voice and beyond. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  03:37

This week on a voice and beyond, we delve into the important topic of neuro diversity with the esteemed Dr. Shannon Coates returning for the second part of a captivating two part discussion on neuro diversity affirming voice pedagogy. Dr. Shannon is a passionate advocate for inclusivity dedicated to developing support strategies and deepening our understanding of individual student needs within the singing voice community. Her mission is to normalize and eradicate the stigma surrounding neuro divergence. Dr. Shannon coats and acclaimed educator and international voice pedagogy presenter has been a leading voice in championing neuro diversity in vocal pedagogy. In this interview, Dr. Shannon will guide us through understanding how neuro divergence can manifest in teaching studios and shares effective strategies to support neurodivergent learners addressing challenges related to motive Vation distraction and prioritization, she provides invaluable insights into recognizing our own biases and their impact on teaching. Dr. Shannon particularly emphasizes the importance of creating an inclusive environment where all students feel seen and valued, regardless of their support needs, life experiences, or identities. She also discusses her views on student led learning versus compliance based pedagogy, highlighting its benefits for all singers, not just those who are neurodivergent. This thought provoking interview with Dr. Shannon codes is essential listening for every singing voice, teacher, and beyond. So join us for this enlightening and inspiring conversation. Don’t forget, this is part two of the interview. Part one was featured in last week’s episode number 173. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  06:34

With students as you build rapport, and as you build trust with the student, I know with this has been my experience, as they know that they are in a place where they feel safe, they will ask, if they know that they’re not going to be judged, you’re not going to come down hard on them because they want to sit, they will ask. So we have to, once again, be careful of the language that we use. And we have to ensure that we have that communication with our students where they feel that they can speak up. So a lot of that comes back to us. It’s just as the teacher absolutely we are the authority figures, so to speak, in that relationship. So it is up to us to then set the precedent for future lessons and to set up and to create that space where they can speak up without fear of judgment or bias. Yes,

Dr Shannon Coates  07:46

and I think so the other part of this as well is that a lot of times, students, all of us in general learners, we do not know what’s possible. So even if agreeing, I’m really tired. And I would love to sit down. If it has not been normalized that that’s actually an option available to me, I may never ask to sit down. Because it’s never been normalized. It’s never been offered as an option. It’s never made explicit, but made explicit excuse me that that is actually an option. So that is part of it. Like you’re saying that’s part of the communication. So even if we have developed this rapport we have developed, it doesn’t matter how many times sometimes it doesn’t matter how many times I say you can ask for whatever you want, if no one has ever suggested that to them, or it’s never occurred to them, that it’s possible to lie down in my voice lesson. They’ll never ask for it.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  08:44

So true. So true. Yeah.

Dr Shannon Coates  08:47

So that’s part of the normalization of the other thing that I think is really a reframe, for voice teachers that I would love to have sort of on the record as well is something that I learned from Liz Jackson Hearns, a wonderful voice educator as well is when a part of student led learning or student centered learning is putting students in the driver’s seat in terms of what they want to happen. So in terms of like neurodiversity, for example, or neurodiversity affirming boys head. One of the things that are even when we’re talking about chronic illnesses, we’re talking about working with folks with mental health challenges. We’re talking about any of any of these things. Anytime we’re talking about neurodiversity affirming boys paper always gonna go into so many, it’s going to be just affirming all around anyway. But yes, there’s so many crossovers there. But if I say something like so autistic folks, one of the things that may happen with autistic folks is overwhelmed, leading to a meltdown. So and this isn’t like a tantrum. I’ve

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  09:52

experienced that in the boy studio.

Dr Shannon Coates  09:55

Right. So this is overwhelmed. Yes, absolutely. Completely. meltdowns unable to function. Yes, possibly crying. There’s lots of things going on.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  10:04

Yeah. Anger, frustration, anger. And it was a student. Absolutely. That couldn’t get something. And they became so angry and annoyed with themselves. Yeah,

Dr Shannon Coates  10:15

yes. And so this is a very, I shouldn’t say comment, but it is a typical experience for autistic folks. And so something that we can do in that particular instance, is have on our intake forms things like, if you should be unable to sing in a lesson, for whatever reason, what would you like to have happen?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  10:38

Well,

Dr Shannon Coates  10:40

who should I contact? What would you like to have happen? So now I’m not now.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  10:45

So it’s part of the sorry, the onboarding? Absolutely.

Dr Shannon Coates  10:49

Part of your onboarding? Yeah. Part of your onboarding, absolutely. Part of your intake,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  10:54

because we ask the pronouns, we ask what medication they’re on.

Dr Shannon Coates  10:59

I mean, can Yes. So like this, and this doesn’t. This is I don’t need to know whether you are autistic or not, I don’t need to know if you have a chronic illness. I don’t need to know if you are struggling with a mental health challenge. I don’t need to know any of that information. What I do need to know is what to do. If something incapacitates you and you could be incapacitated in many different ways because you’re having a meltdown, which just so happens to be because you’re autistic. Okay. But I don’t need to know that you’re autistic? In order to ask that question. Right? Perhaps you are bipolar, and you have, you know, a manic episode in in the studio, I need to know in advance, I don’t need to know that you’re bipolar. But I do need to know, what would you like to have happen if you are incapacitated, or you are not able to function in the studio? For whatever reason? What if you have a chronic illness that causes you to faint? What would you like to have happen? This is, this is and this, this is powerful? It’s such a wonderful question.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  12:04

This is the best thing I’ve ever heard.

Dr Shannon Coates  12:06

Oh, well, there’s Jackson Hearns.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  12:11

I have never, ever, in all my training, I have never had anyone suggest that we do this, in our onboarding

Dr Shannon Coates  12:21

powerful is it is powerful, powerful. I know. And once you hear it, you think, Well, of course, that’s what I should be doing. Why are you doing that? Right? It just makes perfect sense. Of course, that’s what I should do.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  12:36

Just just getting back to because you talked about the student who was autistic, and they may have a meltdown, which I have had a student do that. And fortunately for me, was he was a teenage boy, and his mum was there. And she helped me with in that situation, and he hadn’t taken his medication that day. And up until that day, I didn’t know he was autistic. There was no nothing in his behavior or his the way that he presented that was a sign for me until that day that he didn’t take his medication. And he had this massive meltdown. And he punched a hole in the wall of our dance studio. And, of course, I was forgiving. And of course, you know, it was not angry, I felt so terrible for the boy. And the shame he must have felt afterwards. But okay, so what about someone that comes in? Who has ADHD? What are they most likely? To? What what how can they act out? Or behave? Or what’s their communication style? Or what can we expect to see?

Dr Shannon Coates  13:51

I mean, you you may get folks who let me put it this way, in folks who are socialists, female and or who we perceive to be female, there is a different level of expectation. There’s a different kind of expectation, that may be changing, but there certainly is still, culturally, in most of our cultures, there’s certainly an expectation around expected behaviors, what you’re, you know, how you’re going to behave and what shows me that you are a good student and what you can and can’t get away with the quotes versus the expectations that we have for folks who are socialized male and or who we perceive to be male. So we’ve got in a female presenting, socialized, ADHD person. Our expectations are often that they practice regularly. They are quiet in their studio, they are compliant. They do the things that we asked them like they do that they do it on time. time they learn their music, they do their homework lab lab lab, right? We we are expecting all of these things from them. And so what happens when, when that singer or student is unable to meet those expectations? Either can be like myself, we get really good at doing things last minute, we get really good at being charming and with authority so that they aren’t mad at us when we would have seen if I didn’t do the thing

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  15:26

I can see. Did that Shannon? Very good at getting being

Dr Shannon Coates  15:31

charming? Yes, absolutely. And being sort of self deprecating, and, and Yeah, funny in the studio, and then don’t get in trouble as much. Because I’m cute. Because I’m so cute. We get very good at sort of doing things last minute. Yes. But then also, we hear constantly doesn’t live up to their potential constantly, right? Because you’re clearly smart. Why aren’t you getting a pluses on all of your assignments? You’re clearly smart. Why aren’t you learning your music in time? You’re clearly right. So we get so those so that can lead to this sort of like I said, this kind of clowning charming. This resentment with females, it tends to go inward. I’m a bad person. I’m a lazy person. I’m an undisciplined person,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  16:19

a procrastinator.

Dr Shannon Coates  16:20

I’m a procrastinator. Yes, it tends to go inward.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  16:24

Yes. Can I just ask one question there while you’re talking about all these behavioral presentations within that student? What about distraction, because I had a student who was learning with me, and the task would be, we would be very clear on what their focus was meant to be for the coming week. And that’s just say the task was, this is a song that you’re going to learn. Yeah, because we collaborate on repertoire. So it wasn’t like me saying, Nope, this song, we choose a song that they loving the solar could be a song they suggested, and they come back with something completely different. Or let’s just say that the focus of the lesson was preparing for an audition, but they come back and they’ve decided, no, I’m not going to do that audition. Now, I’ve decided that I’m going to go and join a choir. Right? Right. Because that was something that I was experiencing. I just never knew what Yeah, your student was going to come back with.

Dr Shannon Coates  17:39

So that can be avoidance, right? I know that I’m not even if I love this song, and it was the thing I chose. And also, even if it’s something an additional really want, history tells me that I will not practice enough history tells me that I’m, you know, I procrastinated too long. I’m not going to get this audition, and I’m not going to be able to do the thing that I actually want to so I’m gonna do this other thing that I can be successful at, or I think I can be successful. Right.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:05

Right. So it’s not being drawn away by the next shiny object. It could be that too.

Dr Shannon Coates  18:13

It could be that too. Absolutely. There’s there is absolutely that side of things to write in that kind of so in that when we’re talking about supporting singers who seem to not be able to do the things even when they want to write even when they want to their heart’s

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:35

in it their desires in it. Yes, yes. Yes. So

Dr Shannon Coates  18:39

we’re setting aside and assuming that we’re not trying to enforce compliance, right. So assuming that assuming we are supporting secrets, yes. Then the next step is to start to understand how an ADHD brain works and how ADHD brains are motivated. So this is there’s there’s something called interest based versus interest based system versus importance based. So an ADHD brain works on interest and neurotypical brains are non ADHD brains work on importance. So if I am an prioritising, so if I’m ADHD, it doesn’t matter whether I want to do it. It doesn’t matter whether I know it’s important. It doesn’t matter whether they’re going to be negative consequences to me not doing it. If I am not clicking into one of four different kinds of motivations to do it, I’m not going to do it. So one of the motivations is one of the ways to motivate an ADHD brain is through something we call competition. To me, it means more about, you know, having someone else in the room with me having someone else that I am working with. So this is very common in ADHD circles is something called mirroring or body doubling, or just having someone sitting in the room with you. So it’s Essentially, when we put that into the studio, what that means is, we set up practice groups. So I say to the three, three singers who I think are working in a similar way, and two seem to like each other, and maybe they have the same interests, great. I would love for you three to meet on Zoom or on whatever platform you like, three times a week, you’re going to meet for 45 minutes at the beginning, you’re going to tell each other what you’re working on, and what you want to get done, then you’re going to check in that 15 minutes, and you’re going to everybody’s going to keep their cameras on, that is very important to turn off your bikes, but keep your cameras on. So you can all see each other. And you’re gonna do your thing, and then come back in 15 minutes, or 20 minutes, or however long you want and say, here’s what I got done. I think I get the next little chunk done. Let’s go turn off the cameras or turn off the mics. Everybody’s still on camera, and then you check in 15 Are you checking in half are you can set

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  20:54

the time? Yes.

Dr Shannon Coates  20:56

So what does that mean? I as an ADHD person, I I didn’t know that. That’s what I was doing. But I was, you know, as I as I went through school, I didn’t realize that that’s what I was doing. You know, I studied, I studied best in groups with people. I thought it was because you know, I could get like I could kind of get in on their brainpower. But no, no, it’s because it meant that I would actually study I will not study on my own. Same with learning music, right. So that’s, that is something that you can incorporate into the studio policies, right. It’s just like, we’d love to have practice groups here. Everybody gets 10 points for urgency is another thing that informs an ADHD brain. So urgency is like I have a recital tomorrow, and I haven’t memorized it yet. So I’m going to memorize my music tonight. That’s urgent enough, a month from now is not urgent enough for me to do the to learn the song at all. So how do I set up an urgency system for an ADHD person? Well, I asked them, What makes you nervous? How can you how can we make this heist high stakes, obviously, our lessons are not high stakes enough for you to learn this music. What if the singer who comes to your lesson after you comes to their lesson after you comes a half an hour early and sits in and listens to you and sees whether you know listens to you sing your music amazing, sets up an urgency, right? So now I’ve got to I know someone’s gonna be listening. And if it’s a month before, I may not learn the music Well, but I will start learning the music, at least right? And then maybe I set up a performance class for two weeks before the the, you know, recital or audition or whatever. And instead of a performance class where I literally have six other people from the studio, we’re all singing our music. In my experience, there will be the three kids who who are performance ready two weeks before, always, you know, there’s always those ones who are performance ready two weeks before who could go, who could go on stage.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  22:59

There’s all those kids. Yeah, there’s always

Dr Shannon Coates  23:00

those kids. And they would have been ready anyway. And that’s fine. But it’s not for them necessarily. It’s for the kids who, like me need that urgency in order for them to actually do the face. So

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:14

you’re setting up small milestones, essentially. So you’re taking away from them what could be perceived as a long term goal, and making it this a short term goal or these tiny stepping stones to their perception of a long term goal that has no urgency or importance right

Dr Shannon Coates  23:36

now? Yes. So and those goals have to be quite achievable. And not necessarily they have to have some, they have to have a cost. Okay. So the cost, the urgency part of the cost? Yes, achievable for sure, like achievable to certain extent, but a performance class two weeks before the performance or the audition, or the recital, is I’m going to tell them that they need to be performance ready, because it’s a performance class. Is it achievable for them to be performance ready? Unlikely. But what that does is they are they are getting as performance ready as they would have for the actual performance, but they’re doing a two weeks in advance. So now they’re actually going to be on like, the other thing that happens is that that performance class, they realize how not ready they are and that also then propels you forward. So we’ve set up these little tiny chunks of urgency. It is similar to breaking down big goals into small goals chunking

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  24:46

it down in the woods about our dear friend Heidi moss.

Dr Shannon Coates  24:50

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  24:54

she’s big on that. Yes. Chunking Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Shannon Coates  24:58

The other motivator is Is novelty. And novelty is this is the thing you’re talking about, oh, I just got distracted by the shiny, bright new thing. And so novelty in the voice studio, are one of the things that I recommend in terms of learning repertoire is our learning music, for example, or, you know, doing the research that you need to do for a character or whatever it is that you’re that you’re trying to learn is, maybe you listen to, you know, six or seven different people doing that thing. And you one week using it the way that that person saying the next week you sing it the way that person saying that the next week is saying, so you tell me about those different like, just something to get my brain on to a slightly different interest, or

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  25:46

even using different emotions.

Dr Shannon Coates  25:49

Yeah

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  25:50

The song could be a happy song. Now I want you to sing it as sadly as possible or too sad song right. But I want you to sing it like you’ve just won the lotto. You’re playing around with different emotions, I find is really helpful too. But I know the novelty, the novelty and taking away from them. When when you’re doing that with any student, it allows them to just make sound. There’s no judgment in that sound, because it’s not how it’s meant to be sung Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  26:30

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Dr Shannon Coates  27:56

Coming back again to neurodiversity affirming voice pad is really just student led voice pet like it’s just student led pedagogy. When we incorporate something like everyone gets to lie down if and when they want to. That’s not just for neurodivergent people that’s for that’s for anybody, like I get overwhelmed people or if I maybe I had a bad sleep last night. Anybody Right? Like, that’s me, buddy. Yeah. And it’s also telling you everybody, you can have you have agency you get to decide. And when I incorporate urgency, like when I incorporate a performance class two weeks before I incorporate some kind of like, practice group. That’s for everybody. I mean, that’s great for ADHD brains. But it’s great for all brains to work in that way. It develops community. I mean, it’s great for everyone. Everybody in the studio benefits.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  28:54

Yeah, I want to do that. I’m gonna start doing that with my students. Go for it. Yeah. 100% I love it. Yeah.

Dr Shannon Coates  29:02

And how much do we learn, like when we’re talking about someone coming into my lesson, say, you know, 15 minutes early or something like that. They’re coming into my lesson to give me a little bit of urgency so that I know that at the end of my lesson, I’m going to sing my song as if I’m performing it, and that will click me into practicing a little bit. How much do you learn as a singer from listening to someone else? Yes. I mean, it’s wonderful community building. It’s wonderful. It’s learning for everyone. This is very all neurodivergent neurodiversity firming boys, pet, excuse me, is good for everyone. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  29:39

It also establishes a place of belonging. Yes. Which is one of our most Yes, it’s one of our most basic human drives is to have that sense of belonging. So it is ticking so many boxes here. And you’ve talked about all these wonderful Tips and that are so helpful for us as teachers, what would be the worst possible? What would be an absolute hindrance for a student? Who is neurodivergent? Oh,

Dr Shannon Coates  30:11

again, coming back to neurodiversity Prometheus Purge is just good pedagogy. The most challenging hindering thing for a neurodivergent student is that the behavior that I show the things that I do in the studio, the way that I behave in the studio, is treated as a personal affront by the teacher and or something that needs to be fixed. And or something that needs to that is something that is wrong with me, when in fact, if we as voice teachers can look at that and say, This is data. This is simply information about how that singer is processing right now, how they are in the world right now, what is happening to them in the world right now. So this data around them, perhaps being defiant, perhaps being, you know, never learning their music never seem to learn their music, even though they say they want to this data around like them asking inappropriate, you know, to say, inappropriate repertoire. This, this is all or this data when a singer says to you something like, no, well, I’m not. You’re not teaching me right. I can’t I don’t understand what you’re saying. I don’t know what you’re asking for that. I mean, that can be very hurtful for us as voice teachers, because we’re doing our best we are trying hard, but it’s just data. Can it be just information rather than God? That’s singers so disrespectful. They have no idea how good they have it. They they never see how hard I’m trying. They don’t see how much they

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  32:04

I know, you know, when you were saying all of that, I can’t tell you. And I’m sure you’ve read them as well. In some of the singing teacher forums, I know how many teachers have actually put up a post saying, I have a student that comes in week after week. And they don’t ever practice, they don’t ever learn their repertoire or a student that comes in and they’re always tired. They don’t want to stand. And the comments that come back are so harsh, like you should tell that student that that is your policy, and that you refuse to teach them. And it just makes me angry. Because I feel at the very essence we have forgotten what the word pedagogy stands for. Right? It is the art and the science of teaching. It is not it’s a philosophical discussion that we need to be having a discussion around inclusivity whether it’s gender, whether it’s, it’s voice affirming, whatever it is, we need to come back to the philosophical side of pedagogy in our discussions. It is not about this is the tool that I use to fix this larynx. Because we are more than just a larynx, as singers. Yeah, there are many parts to our instrument and the psyche and our brain. And if our brain is misfiring, it’s not necessarily our fault. Yeah, so there are. So I really feel one, we really need to come back to this discussion about what pedagogy truly is. Let’s get real. If we’re teaching vocal pedagogy. What are we talking about here to it is time to get away from this one size fits all teaching approach. It is time to get away from a master apprentice model. And I know that there are many people that continue to advocate for all of these things. Yes. And they do it unashamedly. Yeah. And I’ve feel by them continue to advocate for what pedagogy is, and it’s all the tools that we use, and this is the tool we use to fix that we use this one size fits all approach that we continue to exacerbate a master apprentice model of teaching. We are not creating teaching an inclusive pedagogy, or an empathy informed a neuro diversity affirming voice pedagogy, a gender affirming pedagogy, a style affirming, affirming pedagogy

Dr Shannon Coates  35:18

theory. So we

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  35:21

really need to have big discussions around all of this. But where do we start? Do we start as us as the individual? Or do we start as a community? Who’s gonna start throwing? Like firing the bullets here? I’m happy to I mean, I’m doing it now. I’m never scared to the podcast. Yeah, I’m not gonna lose my job by speaking up, I can assure you. Yeah. So where do we start?

Dr Shannon Coates  35:54

I mean, I think that is the that is the eternal question. And I think that’s also I mean, you have the platform, and you use your platform in that way, I have the platform and use my platform in that way to do what I can within my sphere of influence. There’s certainly colleagues who think that I am being mean to them sometimes or calling them out unfairly or being unfair or, etc. And you know,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  36:22

is so I’ve had those two. Yes. And I’m fine with that. Yes.

Dr Shannon Coates  36:28

Because look, the students are watching, the singers are watching, people are watching. So if the amount of times that someone is saying to me, well, Shannon, you didn’t understand my, you know, you, you’re, you know, that was unfair. And so and so, you know, you came at them, and you didn’t give them a chance to blah, blah, blah. And I’m saying, This isn’t about you. This is about the system that you are in, like, it’s not about you specifically, this is about the system, no, and the students are watching. So the amount of students and singers who are who are in my inbox saying thank you for saying this, I would never have stood up to X Y, Zed, I, I experienced x y Zed. I, my teachers have said these things to me, thank you so much for validating for saying these things. I now see that so and so was doing these things, and I wish that they hadn’t. And I felt like it was my fault. But it wasn’t my fault. Like the amount of people who are in my inbox with those kinds of comments who they are watching people are watching. So I think that is changing. Yeah, in some ways. Yes. The more you know, we are there sort of saying this is, you know, you’ve got your feelings hurt over there, you’ve got your big feelings hurt. And I’m sorry that you’ve got your big feelings hurt, sort of. But I, this isn’t about you. This is about the system that you are in.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  38:00

And on a deeper level. It’s not about us. Yeah, this is for people. We’re not here to go. Look how smart I am. Right? Look, look at how much I know. I’m planting a flag over here. Yeah. And I’m gonna take ownership of this flag. It’s about our students. Yeah, don’t we want the best possible outcomes and bring the joy while delivering and creating those outcomes and those opportunities for our students? Isn’t it about the joy of singing, and the joy we bring to others and being of service at the end of the day, people, we are in a service industry. We are here to provide a service

Dr Shannon Coates  38:57

and support learning and support agency and to support people having a voice you know, like, those are all the 100% I am compliance based. There’s how can how can a singer develop? I don’t even mean just artistry? Yes, we want obviously once, but I’m talking about just the very fundamental. How do I say the thing I want to say in the way I want to say it, which is of course artistry. But when we’re talking about working with singers who aren’t necessarily going to be on stage, you know, in their lifetimes who are taking voice lessons, for very different reasons, or perhaps for very personal reasons that may include I have never been heard. I feel like I’m not able to say the things I want to say. I feel like I don’t know what I want to say. I feel like I’ve untapped potential. Like all of this. I’ve never been able to use my voice in the way I would like to use my voice all of those fundamental, very fundamental human drive and needs, how is it it is not possible for you to develop those things as a human being if I am working from compliance based and if I’m compliance based pedagogy, and if I am telling you in every single behavior that you exhibit with me, I take as a personal offense, or I take as you are ungrateful, or you are entitled, or you are challenging my authority, or you’re not respect by respecting my authority like that is that is that rageous? It’s a complete cognitive dissonance for me that there’s no possible to support human beings in Yes, developing their voice and communicate on that fundamental level, yes, by forcing by compliance based pedagogy. I

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  40:49

know, I know. And, and, you know, not only do we not have the full picture of that student, and what’s going on with them, and how their brain fires. But we also don’t know what’s gone on in their lives. I had a student who was extremely defiant in their first year with me, and she will probably be listening to this episode. And she won’t mind I’m not naming names. But, but she was very defined. She was swearing at me in the lesson. Yeah, dropping the F bomb at me not happy at all. Yeah. And then ended up being one of the students I’m most closest to, because I later found out that she had just experienced a major trauma, right, major trauma that none of us knew about. And she was she was responding and navigating life as best as she could. But she had just been through a major traumatic experience. And it wasn’t until I received a DM from her based on one of my podcast episodes, where I was speaking about that very topic that she had experienced. And sent me them all this, this still triggers me. But it was the most beautiful message I have ever received. And I thank God that I do the work that I do, and that I’m helping people. And so just moving on, because I have a hair appointment.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  42:33

Okay, so I would like to share in the links, because I’m not going to ask you now because we’re running out of time. Yep. Where people can learn more about this will share resources. Terrific. So I will ask you to send through some resources. Certainly. Is there anything more that you would like to add to this conversation, Shannon? Because this has now ended up being a double episode, you realize that?

Dr Shannon Coates  43:01

Well, that is not that surprising. I have to say,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  43:06

time this has happened to us? Yes. kind

Dr Shannon Coates  43:10

of ends up that way. I think that I mean, coming back to neurodiversity for me, boys, PID. I think that something that is most useful and has been most impactful for me, is coming back to the educators on social media, who are using platforms to speak to their experiences. And if you’re able to ask, I’ll send some, you know, links to the folks who I who I really respect, right, especially when you’re talking about, you know, intersectional educators, who are various levels of intersection that I think especially as white women, I think it is very important to to listen, to listen and to understand experiences that are not ours. And to have that perspective as well. So the the hashtag to follow if you’re interested is hashtag actually autistic is a fantastic hashtag to just kind of follow you will find lots and lots of resources that way. And then of course, those educators when they have books, when they have ways to pay for their education, and they have, you know, as you know, when they have books, they have ways to contribute to that to the work that they do if you are able to contribute that is also good to you. Excellent.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  44:38

Okay, in wrapping up, and I promise this is the final wrap. Okay, what piece of advice would you give to the singing voice community in what they can possibly do? Yeah, to create change or to deal with the student or didn’t have an open mindedness about all of this one

Dr Shannon Coates  44:58

changer intake forms so that you are normalizing and asking questions about what would you like to have happen if, as well as intake forms that and any kind of, you know, communication in the studio that talks about, oh, by the way, this is available to everyone in the studio, I have a whole you know, I have a whole basket of stuffies in the middle in the corner of the studio, if stuffed animals. And anybody if you’re, if you everyone is welcome to bring their favorite stuffy or use one of mine. So you’re normalizing.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  45:32

Yes, Heidi moss has a monster I have, she gave me a monster.

Dr Shannon Coates  45:37

I love it. I love it.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  45:38

I mean, like.

Dr Shannon Coates  45:43

And then the third thing is to so that anytime you come across an accommodation that seems to be useful, normalize it, make it available to everyone, and so they don’t even have to ask or think about it. And then the third thing is, whenever you feel triggered is not the right word. But whenever it feels like someone is being disrespectful, etc, etc, etc, in the studio, just get curious. Yes, get curious about it, rather than trying to shut it down. Now, that is not to say, you are also allowed let me say you are also allowed to say that is not a behavior that I am willing or able to deal with in in my studio, and therefore, another teacher would better serve this cigar, you are allowed to say that please do say that please do not be a murderer, and try to be the best person or save someone that is not a thing. That is not that is not useful, either. However, the other side of that coin is we’re not trying to correct behavior. We’re asking what that behavior is actually saying and it is and treating it like data rather than attack.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  46:47

Yeah, I love that. Shannon, it has been such a pleasure. I love hanging out with you. I want to do this more. Can we find other stuff to talk about as well. But this of

Dr Shannon Coates  47:00

course, anything I know. You can talk

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:04

underwater, just like this has been so informative and so powerful. I’ve had wonderful many, many aha moments. There’s been so many takeaways, and I’m sure the listeners are really going to benefit from this discussion. And continue, please continue doing the work that you’re doing. And I look forward to meeting up with you sometime in the near future. Thank you so much for being generous with your time My

Dr Shannon Coates  47:36

pleasure appointment. Take care.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:42

Bye bye Shambo. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of a voice and beyond. I hope you enjoyed it as now is an important time for you to invest in your own self care, personal growth and education. Use every day as an opportunity to learn and to grow so you can show up feeling empowered and ready to live your best life. If you know someone who will also be inspired by this episode, please be sure to copy and paste the link and share it with them. Or share it on social media and use the hashtag a voice and beyond. I promise you I am committed to bringing you more inspiration and conversations just like this one every week. And if you’d like to help me, please rate and review this podcast and cheer me on by clicking the subscribe button on Apple podcast right now. I would also love to know what it is that you most enjoyed about this episode and what was your biggest takeaway? Please take care and I look forward to your company next time on the next episode of a voice and beyond.