#148. Unlocking the Power of Your Brain in Survival with Ashok Gupta

JOIN THE COMMUNITY

Episode Transcription

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  00:00

Hey, it’s Marisa Lee here and I have some really exciting news to share with you. Just recently, I launched my performance mastery coaching programme, which has been designed to help a forming artists and other creatives just like you to take centre stage in their lives. Whether you’re mid career and simply feeling stuck, or you’re someone who is just about to embark on your career journey, and need help getting started, my unique coaching programme is for you. To celebrate the launch. I’m currently offering a free 30 minute discovery session, so you can learn more about the programme and how I can help you go to the next level in your life. My first intake is already seeing incredible results. So don’t miss out, go visit Dr Marisa Lee Naismith.com forward slash coaching or just send me a direct message and let’s get chatting. Remember, there’s no time like now to take centre stage in your life.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  01:25

It’s Marisa Lee here, and I’m so excited to be sharing today’s interview round episode with you. In these episodes, our brilliant lineup of guests will include healthcare practitioners, voice educators, and other professionals who will share their stories, knowledge and experiences within their specialised fields to empower you to live your best life. Whether you’re a member of the voice, community, or beyond your voice is your unique gift. It’s time now to share your gift with others develop a positive mindset and become the best and most authentic version of yourself to create greater impact. Ultimately, you can take charge, it’s time for you to live your best life. It’s time now for a voice and beyond. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  02:36

This week on a voice and beyond. Our guest is Ashok Gupta, an internationally renowned speaker, filmmaker and health practitioner, who has dedicated his life to supporting people through chronic illness and achieving their full potential. Ashok is also a leading expert in the field of neuro immune conditioned syndromes, otherwise known as NICS and the mind behind the Gupta programme. With the background in neuroscience and a focus on integrative health care, Ashok has captured international recognition for his contributions to treating and see is a condition that often baffles traditional healthcare systems. Ashok explains the various conditions that fall under NICS, which include ones such as chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, multiple chemical sensitivities, and long COVID Which all affect an increasing number of people. Ashok himself suffered from chronic fatigue syndrome around 25 years ago, when he was studying at Cambridge University. Through neurological research that he conducted, he managed to make a full recovery, and Ashok then set up a clinic where he began to treat others. During this interview, Ashok guides us towards understanding these complex syndromes more comprehensively. Why they are arising in prevalence globally, and offers insights into new evidence based approaches substantiated by multiple published randomised control trials on long COVID Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and fibromyalgia. This is a most interesting interview with Ashok Gupta He has dedicated his life to ensuring others do not go through the same challenges as he had on his own journey to recovery through conventional medicine. I was fascinated by this interview, and I know you will be as well. So, without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  05:36

Welcome to a voice and beyond, we have a very special guest all the way from the UK, we have Ashok Gupta. How are you, Ashok.

Ashok Gupta  05:46

I’m very well. Thanks. lovely to be here.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  05:49

Good, good. Now you are a very clever person, you are the mind behind the Gupta programme, and a leading expert in the field of neuro immune conditioned syndromes, which let’s just refer to those as NICS. To make life easier for me, you have a background in neuroscience with a focus on integrative health care. And you have captured international recognition for your contributions on treating. And I see as your expertise has been featured in numerous media outlets, including the Huffington Post, BBC, and psychology today. And you’ve also been a keynote speaker at numerous international conferences on neuroscience and health care. Okay. Now, what’s really interesting about all of this is that you hold a Master’s Degree in Economics and Public Policy from Cambridge University. So how did you get to where you’re at today doing this amazing work that you’re doing?

Ashok Gupta  07:08

Thank

Ashok Gupta  07:08

you, Marissa, for that lovely intro. So yeah, like many of us who are on this journey, we’ve come through our own challenges, because we’ve seen the suffering and pain that comes with these types of illnesses. And then we’ve chosen to help others. So my journey started in the mid 90s, when I was studying it as an undergrad at Cambridge, as you mentioned, and I had just contracted some kind of virus. And for whatever reason, that virus didn’t go away, it continued. And I thought that it would go away, and I’d feel better. But it got worse and worse and worse to the point at which I had to crawl to the bathroom, just to be able to, you know, function. And I have a textbook and I couldn’t even read the textbook on the page. And that’s really started my lifelong journey to say I need to understand what causes these conditions, and be able to heal myself and others from it. And remember, in my darkest moments, thinking if I can just get myself even 50% Better 60% Better, I will dedicate the rest of my life to helping others with this type of condition. And so I read lots of books on urology on brain science, etc. And I came up with a hypothesis as to what I bought caused these conditions. And then I published that hypothesis in 2002. But I wrote it in 99. And I experimented with my brain in a very kind of ad hoc way, and managed to heal myself managed to get 100% Better, set up a clinic to treat others and then publish obviously in various medical papers, randomised control trials, and also published an online programme. So yeah, so that’s kind of my journey started and that’s how we got to where we are today. Okay,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  08:47

so let’s just dumb this right down. What are neuro immune conditions, syndromes? What are they like? What are the diseases or illnesses that fall under that umbrella?

Ashok Gupta  09:02

Yeah, so many doctors talk about how there are so many different illnesses which they find difficult to treat. And those types of illnesses include what we call neuro immune. So there’s something going on in the neurology which is unusual or difficult to track immune, because we see there’s something wrong with the immune system conditions because we believe that these illnesses have been learnt in the brain, it didn’t learn to be the way that they are, and syndromes because there’s a whole variety of different symptoms that tend to cross over between these conditions. So an example would be long COVID fibromyalgia, me and chronic fatigue syndrome, mould illness, Lyme disease, pots, dysautonomia, and whole range of different sensitivity reactions to the environment as well. So those are some of the conditions that we believe come under neuro immune conditions, syndromes, and some

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  09:57

of those are hard to diagnose as well. So it’s almost like it’s just an umbrella term for a bunch of things that could possibly be anything. Right? Yeah, yes, some years ago, I was living in a home that I always used to say I was allergic to. For some reason, while I was living in this house, I was always unwell. And my theory was that there was a mould problem in this home. And it wasn’t till sometime later that this mould became apparent there was kind of like the smell in the house that was kind of like that damp, smell. And at one time, I was very, very unwell. And I was basically bedridden for a week. But then I was very sick for months, and I was diagnosed with viral meningitis. And then another time I was having migraines, I was having vertigo. And so I really believed, I kept saying, I am allergic to the house. There’s something in this house that’s making me unwell. And then when we moved out of the house, I actually was fine. So I kind of feel like some of those things that you’ve mentioned, fall under that umbrella term, are the things that could possibly be almost anything. So what causes NIC? So is there something that you could say, like, is it an inflammatory thing? Is there anything that people have said, Yes, this could contribute to NIC? Yes.

Ashok Gupta  11:44

Yes. So I think the way I start, this is always asking the biggest question of all, why are we here? Okay, so we’re gonna spend the next hour or so discussing this moment who some people perspective, but let’s take it from a scientific perspective. The reason that we are here, as human beings that we exist, is because over millions and millions of years, this nervous system and this immune system has evolved to adapt to our environment, so that we can survive and pass on our genes to the next generation. Okay, so we are survival machines. And the number one priority of the brain is in fact survival. Now, the brain cares more about your survival than it does your wellness. So let’s take that first piece of the jigsaw puzzle that survival is the number one priority. Now let’s imagine that, let’s say we get COVID as an example. So normally, our immune system switches on it fights off the virus in our body, and then switches off and goes back to stand by boat. That’s normally what happens in most people’s kind of immune systems. But imagine that for some reason, your body is weak, yet, it might be physically overdoing it emotionally overdoing it, or you’ve just got a bit stressed, but nothing unusual that most people don’t experience, the immune system may be weaker than normal. So when it’s fighting off this virus, it may think, hey, you know what, we’re fighting off this virus, but because we’re a little weaker, it’s taking longer to fight off this virus, yes. Therefore, we will err on the side of caution, and continue to trigger our immune system and nervous system, even once the virus has got just to check it just to make sure that we are surviving because surviving is more important than wellness. And Marissa, are you? Are you a fan of Game of Thrones?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  13:32

I’m not but my husband is your husband, too much for me? On every level,

Ashok Gupta  13:40

every level. So let’s take an example of a fairy tale. we all we all want to read fairy tales all younger. Oh, even now, of course. So imagine that you are Queen Marisa. Oh, I’d like that. You’d like that. You’re like,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  13:55

I’m loving it already. Ready? You bought in.

Ashok Gupta  13:59

So you’re ready to a queen Marissa have your kingdom. And you have an army, which is your nervous system, and they defend the kingdom and make sure it survives. And you have a navy, which is your immune system, but you also defends the body against incoming invaders. And so the incoming babies are viruses, bacteria, mould, anything that could impact on the body in a negative way. Now, an army comes over the hill, your army and navy fight it off. And everything’s fine. Yeah, but now imagine there’s a drought in the kingdom. Yes, it’s a little weaker. Yes. And now an invading army comes over the hill. But the Army and Navy are also weaker because there’s not enough food in the kingdom. And therefore they really fight off this incoming invader, but it takes them a lot longer to fight it off. So they become traumatised by the effects of war because they think, Hey, we are only just managing to survive. So finally they fight off The invader. But now the Army and Navy is traumatised, and they come to you Queen Marissa and they say, Queen Marissa, we need all the resources of the kingdom, we need all the corn, the wheat, the metal, everything needs to be channelled to us because if we don’t defend the kingdom, everything falls, we’re all lost, right? So you, the natural thing to do is to say yes, okay, you can have all the resources. So now, the Army and Navy are causing widespread inflammation in the body, because they are constantly firing off their bows and arrows and their war machines. Even if something innocuous comes over the hill, so a little child on a little horse comes over the hill, they start firing off all their weapons, because they are traumatised, they think. We have to ensure survival. And then what happens is some of their bows and arrows start falling back into the kingdom, damaging the kingdom as well. So that’s the effects of inflammation on our body and on our brains, we get neuro inflammation, inflammation through the body, we get effects on the muscles, etc. And this process then continues because the Army and Navy are doing the right thing as part as far as evolutionary biology goes, they are hyper defend the kingdom to make sure that we survive. The problem is it drains us of our energy, and starts damaging the kingdom itself, because we are firing off too many weapons of war. And brain retraining is the next time there’s the meeting with Queen Marissa and the generals come in. You say to them, my dear generals, you’ve done a fantastic job of defending the kingdom. But the good news is the war is over. So you can stop firing off your weapons of war stand out. Of course, the Army and Navy aren’t going to believe you the first time, it’s going to require repeated information to tell them that’s where neuroplasticity comes in to say it’s the repetition, forming new neural connections that finally informs the brain that we are safe. So eventually, the Army Navy stand down, they switch off their weapons of war, and the body goes back to its normal state. And that is what we’re doing in terms of brain

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  17:12

retraining. Right. So with the NICS, I just want to get this clear. So basically, the body is fighting. And it’s using all its resources to fight whatever it is, it is fighting. And when it comes time to stop, it doesn’t stop. It keeps fighting. So it is staying in that fight mode, even when it doesn’t need to the war is over, that the illness has left the body but the body is not responding and stopping the fight, it continues to fight. And then what you do with your programme, is it you so somehow the message isn’t firing from the brain to the body to stop fighting, and it continues the war unnecessarily. And it’s the body is depleting. So your programme then is to come in and to retrain the brain to stop the fights and kind of send the message to say, calm down now you can you can stop. Just stop. Is that it in a nutshell? There

Ashok Gupta  18:36

is a great summary. That’s exactly right. When you said got it

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:40

say I was following that’s why I was the queen because I know what’s going on.

Ashok Gupta  18:48

Exactly right. So that is exactly what is what is happening. It wasn’t obviously this is a hypothesis. Yes. You see, this can now apply we can see why it happens from our evolutionary biology we want to survive we so it’s logical as to why this happens. And it also explains why so many of these conditions are becoming more prevalent in society. Because we as a society are now living not according to our genetic inheritance. Yes. So we have gone from essentially being agrarian or hunter gatherers being outside a lot getting lots of vitamin D and light and lot of fresh air being around nature to now in the last couple of 100 years living in boxes, eating food, which is laced with obviously lots of toxins and impurities and artificial substances, which keep triggering our immune system, a nervous system in the background anyway, so many of us are actually in fight or flight mode in terms of our immune system quite a lot of the time because we are constantly fighting off things in the background that we weren’t exposed to before, which gives us this pro inflammatory bias. And this comes from stress. It comes from toxins around us like household cleaning agents shampoo When it comes from the pollution that we’re exposed to, comes from toxins in the foods, it comes from our lack of exercise, or lack of sleep, staring at screens, all of this comes into the bucket, and even the Wi Fi. Yes, so we have electrical fields that we are also surrounded by. So all of this imagine our resilience is like a bucket. Yep. And all of this stress comes into this bucket. And what happens is we can handle a certain amount of stress. But there comes a point in which we can no longer handle it, where the water stress now flows over the sides of the bucket. And that’s when illness occurs, where we reached our capacity for handling the threats that we are experiencing. Now normally, if we we manage our stress and whatever, we’re able to drain the bucket, we can get back to normal. But in some cases, the system becomes so traumatised by the overall attacks, it’s receiving that it then goes into this conditioning mode or learning mode, and then learns to over stimulate our immune system and nervous system. And that’s what then causes these conditions like long COVID and fibromyalgia and modal as all of these different illnesses are as a result of this. overstimulated system. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  21:15

And inflammation is also responsible for many, many other diseases such as diabetes, a lot of the skin problems, there’s so many things that high blood pressure, that there’s a lot of diseases that inflammation triggers to. So therefore, we’re living in a society or in a world where we’re having to deal with issues and environmental problems. And we’re being exposed to all the things that you just said. But our bodies were not actually designed to deal with all this. So with this NIC Yes. Would you say it’s more prevalent in the Western world? Or is it a global phenomenon?

Ashok Gupta  22:05

I think it is a global phenomenon. But it is more prevalent in Western societies, where we’ve moved from a more traditional organic agriculture system to a more mass produced agricultural system, which essentially takes shortcuts such as the fertilisers and etc, that go in the impurities, and then the toxins that accumulate. So for instance, when we’re eating, for instance, like red meat, now, compared to two 300 years ago, the red meat that most people are eating is laced with antibodies, growth, hormones, impurities, so many different things that actually, once again can inflame our systems, and make our systems feel that we’re under threat, because there’s so many impurities now. And that’s not just red meat, there’s a whole range of different substances that we are eating. And this is why this makes us prone to then getting a neuro immune condition, because the system is primed to already be in this hyper defensive state.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:08

Are there people or groups of people or more vulnerable people that are more likely to suffer with NICS? Or is this something that anyone can suffer from? But do you know the stats around the number of people like one out of 20, or one out of 100? who may be suffering at the moment or have done in the past? It’s

Ashok Gupta  23:34

a really good question. So we estimate that between 10 to 20% of the population in Western countries are suffering in some shape or form from one of these types of conditions, whether it be some kind of severe pain syndrome. You know, for instance, even with long COVID We all know somebody who’s still suffering the lingering effects of COVID. Yes. Right. So it shows you how prevalent it is because we all know somebody. And so I think that the prevalence is increasing, because of all of these stresses increasing, and the advent of COVID-19 infection is also making the situation worse as well. And the way that our modern living is affecting is making us more prone. So yes, I do think it’s increasing. And I think if we look at the types of people who are more likely to have it, so we know from the stats that women, unfortunately are more likely to get this than men because I believe their immune systems function slightly differently to the way a men a man’s immune system functions. And also, what’s so fascinating is that we have noticed that it’s more prevalent amongst people who’ve experienced adverse childhood experiences and trauma in younger years. And in fact, there is some evidence that people who’ve had adverse childhood experiences are three to four times more likely to gain some kind of chronic condition like this later in life, and we’ve made the connection between the moment someone in From conception right through to adult life, the chain of connections that creates that cause and effect cycle.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  25:07

So you’re saying that NIC Yes, could be manifested from trauma. So we’ll say benefits.

Ashok Gupta  25:16

I always say this increases the risk factor. Uh huh. And let me let me describe why. When we go to a hospital. Yes, it’s very interesting, isn’t it that all the departments are separate. So there’s an immunology department over here. There’s a neurology department over here. There’s physiology over here, endocrinology over here, and you’re thinking Hang on the body is one system, one body, and yet medicine has split it all up into these separate sections with the brain, and the body doesn’t function like that. The brain simply says, I have a threat. And that threat could be emotional, it could be physical, it could be biological mould. What do I need to do to now defend the body? And I will create an emotional response, a physical response, an immune response. So as an example, when you get flu, how do we feel emotionally? We feel pretty rotten.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  26:08

Yeah, we feel terrible. It’s one thing Yeah, depressing your mood, your overall mood changes.

Ashok Gupta  26:16

Yeah. Now, why is that that is deliberate, because the brain says, I don’t want you to be out there having fun and feeling good, I want you to feel down and miserable. So you’re stay at home. So you’re asked Yes, and you allow your immune system to fight off the infection. So in a similar way, the body does not differentiate. So what happens is our there’s a part of our brain called the amygdala, which is responsible for our fight or flight or defence responses. And it is also now been implicated in pain responses and immune responses, together with a brain structure called the insula, which I’ll come on to in a moment. Now, that the factory setting of that amygdala is determined by many things. So let’s say, the stress of our mother, when we were in the womb, that impacts on how reactive our amygdala will be to the environment. Yep, then our birth experience that will impact on our amygdala, the first five to 10 years of life will severely impact on the factory setting of that amygdala, in terms of how responsive and reactive is it to our environment, how sensitive are we to our environment, and then obviously, our teenage years as well, to a lesser extent. And then as an adult, that is our inheritance, both our genetic and nature, nurture inheritance of the factory setting of the amygdala, then as an adult, the people who are more likely to be emotionally sensitive to their environments, are also more likely to be physically sensitive to their environments, because the same brain structures are in place.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  27:49

That makes sense. And therefore,

Ashok Gupta  27:53

we notice that in our client base, there’s a high percentage of people who had anything along the rage from neglect, you know, lack of love, lack nurture, right through to full blown form with a capital T, and anywhere along that spectrum, and then create this reactive amygdala and insular parts of the brain, which means that if we’re more emotionally sensitive, and reactive, or vulnerable, that then makes us more physiologically sensitive and vulnerable to our environments, and more likely to create a neuro immune condition syndrome.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  28:29

That’s incredible, because a part of what you were saying there was that in terms of the factory settings of the amygdala, we have no control over because when we’re in the mother’s womb, when at birth, a lot of those occurrences, we actually have no control. Therefore, how do we fix the problem? Well,

Ashok Gupta  28:56

the first thing is, it’s to realise that the trauma or the adverse childhood experiences are one layer. Yeah, and the illness is not as a result of that trauma, but sits on top of it, in the sense that it was more likely the brain will be sensitive to developing this learned response to stimuli around if you’re stressed about one thing, you’re more likely to get stressed about another thing, essentially. And so our brain retraining is designed to help people remove that top layer, this layer of illness, this repeated, conditioned response to remove that, now that what we find is with our programme, many people also find that their underlying trauma is as a secondary result, also supported and helped. Because our programme is not just about getting people well, we want people to stay well, which is therefore to learn the skills to be able to handle stress in life and become more aware of our inheritance stress responses that may make us overwork or do things that compromise the health of the body or not in invest in self care. So the first layer is retrain the brain to remove that conditioned response so that the illness isn’t this vicious cycle. And then the second is also to then look at our not looking at specifically what happened to us in the past, but to look at the effects of that in the present, and how do we respond to our environments? And how can we calm that response down? So there’s a nervous system of regulation, as well as brain retraining?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  30:24

Yes, you

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  30:25

have your programme, which we’re going to speak about in a moment. Two questions I’d like to ask. One is with NICS, is a preventable? And secondly, if a patient does have NICS, what are the traditional ways of dealing with that? What options do they have in terms of treatment, health care programmes and approaches?

Ashok Gupta  30:56

Well, in terms of the latter question, generally, there are many things that have been shown to be consistently beneficial, which is why it’s a mystery to most doctors and medical professionals. So generally, people will go through the mainstream medical system, they’ll not get much benefit. So then they’ll go to a nutritionist, naturopath, integrative and functional doctor. And there are certainly some things that can help patients. So we know going on a good diet, making sure you pace yourself having certain supplements that are anti inflammatory, these can all support and helps and certainly people notice an improvement in their health, but they often find that it doesn’t really get them to 100%. And they often find that a stress can come along, or a difficult time in life or just a busy time. And when all the symptoms, it all flares up. It all flares up. And many nutritionists say to me, we just don’t understand we, we do this great work, we get people well, but it doesn’t seem to last. And then things can all come flooding back. Therefore, we don’t know if we’re getting to the underlying cause. And that’s why we work with a lot of naturopaths and nutritionists to say, let’s work in tandem while you’re still working on the downstream effects. But let’s go upstream and try and fix the originating issue, which we believe is in the brain itself. And there’s a vicious cycle going. So the brain says, right, we believe we’re still in danger. Okay, so it stimulates the nervous system and immune system, just like the fairytale we spoke about, that then causes the physical symptoms in the body. Now, normally physical symptoms in the body are just physical symptoms, the brain doesn’t necessarily, you know, see that as a negative, massively negative thing. But we believe in these conditions, the brain stopped seeing these symptoms in your body as a threat. Yeah, there’s also evidence that the original trigger is still present. So the body thinks the brain thinks, Oh, I’ve got symptoms in the body, maybe the COVID-19 infection is still here. So then those symptoms loop back to a hypersensitive brain, and the brain thinks we’re still in danger. So it then triggers those defensive responses, which creates accessing the immune system and nervous system response, sympathetic response, which causes symptoms and inflammation in the body, which loops back to the hypersensitive brain, and you see that we get a vicious cycle. And that is why so many chronic conditions can go on for years, because the inputs and the output of the system have got connected. And then we get into a vicious cycle. And our programme is designed to break that vicious cycle to train the brain that we are no longer in danger, and then switch off those responses. So that’s getting upstream. So to answer your question, traditionally, there’s not many things that have been shown to have long term benefit for people with these conditions. But we hopefully go to the original source and then help people heal.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  33:48

This is such a lightbulb moment for me, when you were talking about this vicious cycle, I have got health issues. And I believe that it comes from stress, although I can’t prove it, but I believe that there’s stress involved or anxiety, and that triggers the gut health issues. And then when I am in pain for a number of days, I feel that then that exacerbates the anxiety even further. And so it becomes this. I feel like I’m on a treadmill and it’s like what do you treat first, do you treat the brain? Do you treat the gut, which it’s it’s this cycle and what you were saying earlier about traditional medicines or even going to see a naturopath that yes, it does help for a while. But then when you go into that fight or flight response that we all Do at various times in our lives, that trigger happens, and I end up back on that cycle again. So it’s never fully recovered. It could be months, it could be a year. But history has shown with me that it keeps reoccurring. And I know that you you deal specifically with the brain, and you use neuroplasticity, to help your patients. So do you want to describe for those of us who don’t fully understand what that is, I kind of feel like neuroplasticity is a rewiring of some kind. But maybe you would like to describe what that is. But for all of us in another, I can be the queen again, if you wish, but I don’t I don’t have to be but I wouldn’t mind.

Ashok Gupta  35:58

And some others as well. So yeah, the the things you mentioned about the gut is so important. Because once again, when we are giving certain dietary restrictions to a patient, or we are when I say we we as a civilization, we are then giving supplements that can help for sure, because it’s helping the body deal with this overactive immune system and nervous system, which creates this inflammatory response. So what we’re trying to do is reduce as much other sources of inflammation. So the body can at least handle its own triggered inflammation, if you certainly so we’re trying to reduce other inflammatory foods. But it doesn’t get to the root cause I believe of of this vicious cycle. And you say symptoms can come flooding back. And we know this is a massive gut brain connection. So if you have gut issues and a compromised gut biome, that then feeds back to more depressive and anxious thoughts in the brain, which then feeds back to a tightness in the guts and all that gut issues. And don’t you find it fascinating, gruesome, and I certainly do, where there are people that I know, who have a really bad diet, they don’t exercise, they’re eating loads of fast food. And yet, they’re just happy go lucky. They don’t get any gut issues and whatever. And the people who are like super strict with their diet and the most amazing diet, and yet they’ve got all these gut issues. Yes, I was curious. And that gives us a clue to how important the brain aspect of it is. Because the people who don’t get such such bad gut issues, I generally find, and this is a people apologise, I apologise, people advice, because it’s a sweeping generalisation. But they tend to be people who are less anxious, they tend to be more carefree, they’re less, you know, attached the things that just, you know, bid jolly, and just get on with life. And I don’t mean that in a negative way. What I’m saying is they don’t have sensitivity and that kind of anxiety about things. They’re less conch, perhaps less conscientious about getting everything right, you know, less perfectionist less achiever, and therefore, their gut tends to be generally okay. Now, that doesn’t mean they won’t get things later in life. But it shows us how powerful the mindset aspect is, in terms of impacting on our gut. We do in brain retraining. So imagine your brain is like a field, let’s imagine a field. Yes. And we have a stimulus, which is the presence of mould or symptoms in your body, which might indicate ongoing COVID, whatever it may be. And the interpretation is, this is dangerous. And the responses let’s trigger the immune system and nervous system. So stimulus is the trigger interpretation is this is dangerous result is let’s trigger our immune system and nervous system. Now that process is like a channel like a neuron in that field. So imagine a river flowing in that field, it’s cut a little path along that field, and we need to reroute that river. That’s what basically neuro neurological brain retraining is we need to push the river in a different direction. But that ground is frozen. So if the ground is frozen, we can’t reroute the river in your brain. So the first step of brain retraining is to thought the soil. Yeah, so we want to unfreeze the soil to make the soil loose and mammoth. Yes, so that’s meditation, breathing techniques, nervous system regulation all come in, because they help loosen up the brand. And then the second step, which is the core of our programme, is retraining the brain which is digging a new neuronal channel in a different direction. So we reroute the river, we reroute the thought energy, or the patterns onto a different river. And of course, that requires repetition because you do that one day, and the next day if you don’t do it, if it rains, the rain will find the old riverbed and go along the left hand path. Yeah, so repetition is very important, until the new path is so deep, that the old path freezes over and soil and grow last row and you can no longer detect the left hand part. And now river is being rerouted along the right hand path. And that then is successful brain retraining process. But then someone has to be careful not to become complacent because those old riverbeds are still there. And you know, when they are archaeologists and certain geologists, they do tests, you can have a river that dried up 2 million years ago, but you can still detect where it was. So in the same way, we encourage our patients to not become complacent, and continue with their brand new training, even though they have healed and got well, because we’ll make sure they stay well. And they can manage this. As that is the process of brain retraining is going along the right hand path. And in our photon analogy, it’s you informing your generals that they can stand down, the war is over, thank you, you’ve done a great job. And when they stand down, then eventually they’re firing us. Arrows, there’s less arrows falling into kingdom, the kingdom goes into less of an inflammatory state, the whole system comes down, and we think back to normal functioning of the kingdom

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  41:05

and arrived, right. So the work with the neuroplasticity, it’s or is it like a brain hack? Or hypnotherapy i because I’m currently having hypnotherapy treatment every week, because I went through a phase where I was in a situation where I had a lot of anxiety around things that were going on in my life. And I couldn’t switch the anxiety off. Even though I was doing all the things I was doing meditation, I was writing the gratitude journal, I was doing all the work that I thought I was meant to do, but for some reason, I was just spiralling. So I had heard about hypnotherapy. And this particular therapist said that he has trained in NLP, which is Neuro Linguistic Programming is this all kind of the same type of thing is what you’re doing.

Ashok Gupta  42:08

So our brain retraining is quite unique in the sense that there are repeated exercises to do throughout the day, rather than we sit down, and you do one thing, and that’s it, although we have that as well. And so there are certainly crossovers, in terms of what are all of these different tools and techniques, ultimately attempting to do that ultimately attempting to create new neuronal pathways in your brain, so that you no longer are stuck in old pathways. And the difference with our programme and our treatment is that it’s the repetition and the way that repetition is done to create those new neuronal connections. So as an example, how we’re different to cognitive approaches is, let’s say you’re learning to drive a car. Now, on your first lesson, if you sit there and think, Hey, I’m going to be super positive. And I’ve definitely learned to drive this car, I’ve got no negative patterns or beliefs, I’ll be able to drive this car that can help. But it won’t help you learn to drive the car. Yes, so let’s drive the car, what you need to do is have regular lessons where you teach your nervous system to do the steering wheel, press the accelerator at the right point, use the gearshift look left and right, you need to do that repeatedly again and again and again. And so your brain learns it unconsciously. And you become what we call unconsciously competent. And that means then you can drive your car and eat a sandwich and listen to radio and daydream. Because your body has now automated that process. So you’ve yes, that on the right hand path. The way that this is different to traditional, other types of techniques is it is the repetition throughout the day that really makes the impact on this and creates those new neuronal pathways in a shorter period of time than you might in traditional therapies. But ultimately, even hypnotherapy and NLP are looking to achieve the same outcome, which is new neuronal pathways.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  44:01

What are some of the results that you’ve seen in patients that have been a part of your programme? What are some of the results you’ve seen? Sure.

Ashok Gupta  44:12

So we make sure that everything that we do as much as possible is science backed, and we’ve got data behind it. So as an example, we published a clinical audit, which found that 90% of patients improved and two thirds of patients went on to make a 80 to 100% recovery, which is what we call a full recovery is 80 to 100% of pre honest levels. And recently we’ve just finished a couple of randomised control trials. So this is the kind of gold standard in science. And we found that for fibromyalgia, we in eight weeks, our programme reduced Fibromyalgia scores by 40%, but zero in the control group. We also have anxiety and depression in eight weeks, and we were able to increase functional capacity by 50%. So that was a great results and we are six months programme. So having that in eight weeks was great. And most recently, just a few months ago, we published a randomised control trial on long COVID. And we compared our programme to a wellness programme. So the wellness programme had diet supplements, sleep, exercise, all of those types of things. And they compare this over three months. And after three months, the programme is four times more effective at reducing fatigue and exhaustion, compared to the wellness programme, and twice as effective at increasing levels of energy compared to wellness programmes. So that was a published independent study as well. And that’s shown, then was more interested in our programme as a result of that study. And we are conducting further randomised control trials to finally prove the effectiveness of this approach. So yeah, we’ve had some great results. And recently, we’ve had some changes in our programme, which I think will make it even easier to use. So we’ve now published it as an app. So as an app, it’s super easy to use wherever you want, as well as on the web. And we’ve just introduced something called Daily Gupta sites. For our patients absolute game changer, we know that patients are isolated and alone at home, right. And it’s difficult to keep up the motivation with these tools and techniques. But we say to our patients, even if you just don’t understand what you’ve got to do, every day, Monday to Friday, we have daily zoom calls with our expert coaches, who lead patients through the nervous system regulation, and then the brain retraining. And we have two to 300 people a day coming on to those calls. And it’s been a game changer, because now they feel supported and held through their healing journey. And they’re ready to think about doing it on their own, provides motivation, accountability, they can see their friends online. And it’s just been, you know, a godsend for so many of our patients and really supporting their healing. So that has been somebody that you know, we’re uniquely doing that has been a wonderful,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  46:55

brilliant, that is brilliant. Now I have become a subscriber, I haven’t engaged as yet, because I’m only new, but I can’t wait to do some of the work. Now tell me about some of the other things that you offer as part of the Gupta programme, because you’ve talked about some of the workshops where they’re singing and dancing and laughter certainly helped us about some of those.

Ashok Gupta  47:21

Yes, so these bits are all optional in case someone that’s that’s not someone’s cup of tea, we believe there are three main arms to the healing. Number one is relaxing the nervous system. So we have lots of breathing and meditations. And if people can’t meditate, there’s lots of other exercises that help people calm down. And then the second is the brain retraining, which are the different tools and techniques through videos that people learn how to engage. And thirdly, re engaging with joy. So we know that people heal better and for longer when they’re able to connect to that inner joy. And therefore, we have lots of fun workshops that people can join. And we help people understand how they can benefit from that aspect of our physiology. And the way this is all delivered is through interactive videos through the app or through the website, and lots of audio exercises. And then weekly webinars with myself. So I present weekly webinars to support people through the process. And then we also have a really loving forum where people can ask questions and make friends and find buddies. And as I said, we also have this daily good to size as well, which means that you have some of the retraining that you can gauge with each day. And so it’s very comprehensive package of support that people get. And until we have the phase two and phase three larger trials, we also offer a one year money back guarantee on the treatment. So people have got Wow.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  48:46

Wow, one year. Yeah.

Ashok Gupta  48:49

So after six months, so it’s a six month programme. I mean, three to six months, and after six months if people do they dock for them, they can return it no questions asked and get their money back.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:00

Has that happened? We certainly

Ashok Gupta  49:03

get a few percent of people like no treatment is effective for everybody. So about three or 4% of people return their programmes, but most people find this really beneficial and they continue with the treatment,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:13

but also to how do you know for a fact that they’re that they happen that like they’ve done the programme? They have gotten better, but they’re just flying? I mean, you really can’t tell, can you? We

Ashok Gupta  49:27

know we generally find that our patients are very, dare I say the kinds of personalities that get these types of conditions. One trait we’ve certainly noticed is conscientiousness, I used to do a good job that what we call the good little boy or the good little girl syndrome. And so we just trust that patients and you know, generally if either if you’ve benefited even 20 30% from something you feel super bad about then returning it knowing that you did prove so we trust our patients and come

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:59

to I feel that you should find out what star sign these people are. And I bet you the majority of them would be Virgos

Ashok Gupta  50:08

interested? Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  50:12

control freaks perfectionist hard on themselves want everything to be perfect want to be the good person? Stress over everything? I think I actually think we should do a little experiment or a little research study there on us. Just saying, so what’s your mission with all of this? Ashok? Because I know that you’re doing this, you’ve launched this programme? Would you like to see it in hospitals? Would you like to see doctors endorsing it? What? Where would you like to see this go to,

Ashok Gupta  50:53

I would love for everyone to have access to this type of approach, right from the get go, instead of 567 years down the line, or they’ve been through all other avenues. So I would like to have such a large evidence base that in five years time, you go to your doctor and say, Hey, I’m suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome, where I’ve got pain syndromes, or I’ve got mould, that the first port of call is for the doctor to say, right? Let’s start you off with neuroplasticity. Let’s rewire the brain, because there’s such a large evidence base behind it. So that would be my vision, our aim, so that we can heal so many more people, because at the moment, literally millions of people around the world are suffering from these illnesses, they have no treatment that’s really showing any effectiveness. And many people do get better randomly through various avenues. But often, it’s never a lifelong thing. And they still care. And therefore we want to heal at least a million people over the next five years, and heal as many people as possible after that. So yeah, really, it’s to put this out there as a mainstream treatment.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  51:58

Yes. What is your legacy here?

Ashok Gupta  52:01

I think the legacy is to have made this new branch of medicine, mainstream. I think neuroplasticity and this neural retort rewiring type of area is the new exciting area of medicine, I want to be, at least contribute to this vision of it becoming mainstream about it becoming something that heals so many people, and has got the depth of science in terms of the research and the trial data behind it. So that’s really the legacy that I want to leave so that future generations don’t need to suffer as much as our generations have been Think about the last 20 to 30 years, how many people have now been diagnosed with all of these illnesses, and that is lost in the system. And they’re not healing, they’re not getting better. They’re

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  52:46

not. They’re not doctors don’t know what to do with them. And that’s I know the word that I was trying to think of earlier, when I was saying that umbrella term. i It’s a wastepaper basket term with a lot of these things that when people don’t know quite where to fit things into, they can often be put into these categories. And it’s just one becomes one big massive like, this is what you have not really sure what to do with it. So I’ll just put you over there. So you have a name for it, and good luck. And people are left to their own devices.

Ashok Gupta  53:32

I think that’s exactly what it is. It’s something where people don’t feel understood by their doctors, they feel that the doctors think they’re making it all up. And it takes them a long time to find something that can really help them. And generally what we noticed, because people will say, Well, hang on, I didn’t do any primary training and I healed. What we believe is that people can heal from lots of different modalities, which then as a secondary consequence retrains the brain automatic, and this can be the basis of the self healing effect, not the placebo effect, per se, although that is part of it. Yes. When someone, let’s say, goes on a new diet, and that improves their guts, their brain and thinks, hey, you know, remember those Army or Navy firing off their arrows, they suddenly think, hey, maybe I’m feeling better. Maybe I want to virtuous circle. And so automatically, that retrains the brain that we are no longer in danger, creates a virtuous circle of healing and health, and then someone can heal and get back. But then a moment of stress, it comes back, the brain is still in that vulnerable state. And then we triggers those overactive immune system, nervous system networks, which then creates then the chronic illness and we get back into a vicious cycle, which is why these illnesses are often a cycle of healing and recovery and then reinitiation of the illness because the ground is still soft, we still have those neuronal pathways and

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  54:53

I had an experience where when I was trying to figure out what was going on with my I got, I decided I would try gluten free. And that worked for a while. And I thought, oh, okay, that was the problem. I was gluten intolerant. But then I, when I ate gluten, when I wasn’t stressed, I could handle it. And then I thought maybe I started trying lactose free. And that worked for a while. But then when the stress came back, that didn’t work, either. It’s like, you’re writing what you’re saying, you’re trying all these different things. But then when you go into that stress mode, or that anxiety peaks, that doesn’t matter. And what you were saying to about, you have two different people. Well, my brother and I, same genetics, he has no gut problems, he can eat anything, he has a Cast Iron Stomach. And here I am, full of all these stomach problems, anxiety issues, and we’re both from the same parents.

Ashok Gupta  56:09

Yes, and they’ve even been studies, I mean, I’m assuming you’re not twins, but they don’t 20 years apart, you’re 11 years apart. So someone could still say what perhaps is different in genetics, but actually, they’ve done studies on twins with a similar result, where you have twins who are genetically identical, but actually, they can go on to have very different gut biomes and very different responses to their environments, depending on once again, the lifestyle factors, the stresses and strains, personality traits. And therefore it is more nurture, than it is nature in terms of our responses to our environments. And the good news is we have control over that or certainly influence over it. And therefore, now the health systems need to refocus on calming our nervous systems as being something which is given to people as a prescription, you know, as a just as important as any other medications that they give. And that’s really our aim is to support nervous system regulation is a very core ingredient of overall health.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  57:09

Now, you’ve talked about mends MENDS, you were talking about that as part of your programme or something that you’re endorsing. Do you want to talk about that briefly?

Ashok Gupta  57:23

Yes,

Ashok Gupta  57:23

so let’s say we don’t have a chronic illness, but we just feel like we want to have a better gut biome, and we want to generally feel healthy. So we’ve created this protocol, and we’re going to be investing in this and releasing it soon, called a MENDS protocol. And it’s quite funny. Some people call this I was talking about this. And the lady said, Yeah, sure. Why are you talking about the men protocol that’s very sexist. And I said, No, no, it’s not the men protocol. It’s the Mend protocol with a de at the end, right. And what men stands for is the four key components of health, that there are five, but let’s say the four core ones. And this for mind, is for exercise, and is for nighttime routine. So that’s your sleep. And D is for diets and obviously supplements. There’s a very important component, which is S for social, in terms of our engagement. These five components really decide our longevity, our overall health, how many good years of health that we have. And generally most people focus on the D, which is the diet, they think, right, I want to live longer, I want to feel healthier, maybe I need to fix my diet, because that’s almost the simplest and easiest one to do, because it doesn’t require our investment in terms of time. So we think that take some supplements ate the right thing, I should be fine. But you can see that’s just one component out of five. And I believe the mind one is the most important that if we can get our nervous system regulated and calm, actually, our bodies are pretty resilient, they can handle a lot of abuse, in terms of the food we give it etc. Not that we advise that but getting the mind calm is the most important piece of this. And obviously physical exercise is super important. Getting the right amount of sleep is super important. And then the diet supplements are an important piece of the jigsaw but aren’t the whole picture. And we know for instance that in terms of longevity, the number one factor for longevity is not smoking, drinking, etc. It’s actually loneliness. Loneliness is a mortality factor or cause mortality in later life and therefore, supporting elders, parents, etc. Through their retirement is incredibly important. Yes, their own health. So the MENDS protocol is really for us to all think about at least five categories, how we’re doing, how we’re doing the mind aspect, how we do the exercise aspect, and having an overall holistic approach to our health.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  59:51

And for a lot of people, I suppose they’re listening to this and they’re saying, Wow, that that’s a lot. This is really overwhelming. We’ve got the mind We’ve got the exercise we have the nighttime routine, we have the diet, we have the social, where do we even start? And I like to say to people, just one small step each day, even if you make one change every day. And some of the things that I started incorporating this year, was even where I parked the car, if I’m catching the train, rather than going to the nearest car park to the train station, I would find the car park most furthest away, which meant that I had to walk just that little bit further. And then I started to make sure that I had a nighttime routine before bed, that my body was being given that signal that, okay, you’re going to be going to bed soon, just little things all together, create the big sum of don’t they?

Ashok Gupta  1:01:03

Absolutely, you’re you’re right, because if we feel all of this is overwhelming, we won’t put anything into practice. So it’s just picking, I would say pick three things, three things that you can do simply each day. And you’ve outlined a few there. And I think in terms of the biggest impact, just spending at least 10 minutes relaxing at some point during the day like and on our app, we have lots of free meditations, 10 and 20 minute meditations people can listen to, I think everyone’s at least got 10 minutes a day they can invest in their health, knowing how impactful it will be. So that’s, that’s the number one thing we say to people is just find some time to meditate or breathe each day for 10 minutes. And something else that’s really simple to put into practice is just go for a walk, yeah, at least 20 to 30 minutes a day. We all know it’s good for us just making sure that at least 30 minutes a day, we go for a brisk walk that can easily be incorporated into our day. So there’s a two or three simple things that we can put into practice. And then we sleep, just we all know we’re going to bed later these days because of Netflix and because of our phones and our devices. And we know that the optimal time for sleep, by the way, in terms of our melatonin cycles and cortisol cycles is around 1030. So 1010 30 time I go to bed, perfect. So that is the ideal time for us to go to sleep. So just making sure that we’re getting to bed on time and, and going to bed at the same time every day really makes a positive impact as well. So those are three simple things, we can do a bit of relaxation each day is deliberate, going for a walk every day, and making sure that we get to sleep at the same time each day. Three simple things that can really make a big impact on Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:02:36

and also the social connection. We have become isolationist as a society, especially since COVID. And we are not having that social engagement that we used to have. My mum passed away last year and she was 99 and seven months. Wow. Now she made sure she had a purpose. Every day, she had a reason to get up, do her hair, put some lipstick on, put a little heels on, they got littler as she got older, and to leave the house and to be with other people whether she would go to bingo, whether she would go to church, whether she would go to a little group where they’re all Italians. But that sense of purpose was so important to her. And I saw a documentary I think it was the blue zones were people that had the greatest number of centenarians. And that was one thing that they all had a sense of community. In all these areas where people live over 100 years of age, they all had this sense of belonging and sense of community. So I don’t think that that is something that we shouldn’t underestimate. Now, what else are you up to week? We’re going to start wrapping this up. Ashok, what else are you up to at the moment? What’s coming out soon?

Ashok Gupta  1:04:12

Yeah, so I have a personal development programme or the meaning of life experiment, which you’ve touched on purpose here is a 30 day programme for us to discover more happiness, so the science of happiness, to discover more meaning. So really understanding what is the meaning of life, right? Yes. And then finally, more purpose so we can connect with our life purpose, the gift that we’re here to give to this planet. And I believe we’re all here to give a gift in our own small, medium or large way but all of it is large in the sense that there’s no comparison. And this programme is a 30 day programme where you listen to a meditation, you watch a video, and then answer some self reflection questions. And we filmed this is a whole documentary series. So we filmed this a number of years ago, are we launching the apps and they should be available when this This podcast goes out. Sure, yes. So that’s another programme that people can engage with. It’s completely free, and has lots of great videos and content on there that they can consume. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:05:11

If you had to give one piece of advice to our listeners, in terms of better health, what would you say? I would

Ashok Gupta  1:05:20

say, the number one piece of advice I would give is, let go. Ha,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:05:25

ha. sorry for laughing. Are you talking to me here?

Ashok Gupta  1:05:34

Yes, exactly. It’s the number one thing. Stiles because of our expectations of society, ourselves, we become so attached to our sense of self image, and wanting to do a good do a good job. And as you say, do it perfectly and achieve things. And we’re so attached to that, that our nervous systems are tense and tight a lot of the time. And so we take a deep breath in, and just let go and be more at peace and contentment with who we are, what we’ve achieved, and what is expected of us. And just let go and say, We are good enough, just the way we are. Even if we did nothing else in life achieved nothing else, from this moment onwards, we are still a good person. And we can let go of that attachment and be at peace with ourselves. And if we can just incorporate that into our daily life. What a more relaxing time we would have.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:06:31

And I tell you, I just had the greatest sense of calm, come over me right then when you were saying that, and I took a deep breath, I actually felt this sense of like, stillness, calm and peace. So obviously, that’s something I need to do more often. And I need to I need to listen to those words every day. So we’re going to share the links to your apps, and to your programme to your website. Ashok, I really appreciate your time. I’m fascinated by the work you’re doing. This is brilliant stuff. And I’m really pleased that people are now starting to get this whole idea of the brain and body and mind connection, that they’re not in isolation, the brain doesn’t work in isolation, that everything is working together. And we we have to take a holistic approach to help. So I really love this. It’s great work, please keep doing what you’re doing. We need more people like you trying different programmes, you know, traditional medicine is failing, in many ways. It’s not covering off on everything. So

Ashok Gupta  1:08:00

yeah, thank you, Marisa, really appreciate your your kind words. And yes, there’s lots of us in this field, like yourself, and many hundreds of 1000s of others who are trying to push this agenda forward, which is this idea of Holistic Health, long term health. And how important is that we don’t rely on a medical system, which is just taking drugs, but instead look at our holistic overall health. And I think things will change massively in the next five to 10 years. Yes. Look,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:08:25

thank you so much. Good luck with all your work and I truly appreciate your time as sharp and, and hope to connect again, I will get busy on that app. And I’m really keen to give this a go. So thank you so much. Take care.

Ashok Gupta  1:08:42

Thank you so much. Take care. Bye

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:08:44

bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of a voice and beyond. I hope you enjoyed it as now is an important time for you to invest in your own self care, personal growth and education. Use every day as an opportunity to learn and to grow so you can show up feeling empowered and ready to live your best life. If you know someone who will also be inspired by this episode, please be sure to copy and paste the link and share it with them. Or share it on social media and use the hashtag a voice and beyond. I promise you I am committed to bringing you more inspiration and conversations just like this one every week. And if you would like to help me please rate and review this podcast and cheer me on by clicking the subscribe button on Apple podcast right now. I would also love to know what it is that you most enjoyed about this episode and what was your biggest takeaway? Please take care and I look forward to your company next time. On the next episode of a voice and beyond