#147. Brain Health Matters with Heidi Moss Erickson Part 2

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Episode Transcription

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  00:00

Hey, it’s Marisa Lee here and I have some really exciting news to share with you. Just recently, I launched my performance mastery coaching programme, which has been designed to help a forming artists and other creatives just like you to take centre stage in their lives. Whether you’re mid career and simply feeling stuck, or you’re someone who is just about to embark on your career journey, and need help getting started, my unique coaching programme is for you. To celebrate the launch. I’m currently offering a free 30 minute discovery session, so you can learn more about the programme and how I can help you go to the next level in your life. My first intake is already seeing incredible results. So don’t miss out, go visit Dr Marisa Lee Naismith.com forward slash coaching, or just send me a direct message and let’s get chatting. Remember, there’s no time like now to take centre stage in your life.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  01:25

It’s Marisa Lee here, and I’m so excited to be sharing today’s interview round episode with you. In these episodes, our brilliant lineup of guests will include healthcare practitioners, voice educators, and other professionals who will share their stories, knowledge and experiences within their specialised fields to empower you to live your best life. Whether you’re a member of the voice, community, or beyond your voice is your unique gift. It’s time now to share your gift with others develop a positive mindset and become the best and most authentic version of yourself to create greater impact. Ultimately, you can take charge, it’s time for you to live your best life. It’s time now for a voice and beyond. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  02:36

Before the holiday season, we received an overwhelming response to my interview with Heidi Moss Erickson when we discussed our own personal battles with anxiety and depression. And also, we shared our story of our grieving journeys as survivors of suicide. In that part one of our two part interview, Heidi and I also spoke about brain health and the importance of taking care of our brains for the sake of our mental health. In today’s show, Heidi will share science based information on some surprisingly simple things we can incorporate into our day to day lives to enhance our brain health, and help us elevate our mental health. Other topics we discuss in this show include how the brain operates, the brain and neuro divergences. What are dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline and cortisol? And how do they impact our brain chemistry? Why we should substitute trauma informed pedagogy with empathy, informed pedagogy in the singing voice studio, and the importance of good sleep, exercise and sunlight as powerful strategies for improving our overall mood. This episode is not a pity party, but rather is is about healing the resilience of the human spirit and shining a light on these difficult topics. It is our intention to give, even if it’s just one seed of hope to anyone listening who feels that they are living in a moment of darkness. We want to give our hearts to you and to reaffirm that there is hope that you are never alone, and that this too shall pass. Once again, I would like to stress that some of the content may be triggering. Therefore If you or someone you know is struggling, we have included links where you can seek help in the show notes. Remember, this is part two of a two part interview with Heidi moss Erickson, and Part one was the episode previous to this one. So, without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  05:36

What about the brain then the parts of the brain that are associated with things such as bipolar and different personality disorders and ADHD? Some of those neuro divergences? Yes. What are the parts of the brain that affect those or trigger those or cause those or are impacted by those? Yeah,

Heidi Moss Erickson  05:58

I mean, I think if we had an answer to that, and that’s why I like this, Chris Palmer, because what they see, I mean, there’s certain, you know, I think the labels are convenient, you know, autism is. And I think there’s so many overlaps, you know, particularly with neuro diversity. And it’s so complicated in terms of the relationship of neurotransmitters to, you know, metabolic things which are also interrelated that, that everything is so correlated, and the brain never operates in isolation. So some people used to think of like the, you know, oh, my lizard brain did it. We don’t have a triune brain. It’s all connected at all times. And so maybe they’re fighting for attention. You know, one, one part is going to say, I want to, you know, but in reality, it’s this interconnectedness. So they’re seeing several things at the macro level. It’s sort of like patterns, right? Patterns of things of connections. And again, what does that mean? certain patterns. at the micro level, it’s this, maybe it’s neurotransmitters, but they can’t take your blood and say you have too little serotonin, right? There’s no diagnostic for this. I always say like, 100 years, they’re gonna equate some of the things we’ve been doing to bloodletting because it’s just, it’s roulette. They’re just saying, try this, see if it works. Try this. See if it works. I like the metabolic thing, because it’s an umbrella for almost every mental illness, even seizures. Wow. Because so that idea, you know, in the 20s, they did this kind of ketogenic diet where they deprive the brain of glucose, right? And that cured seizures. And so that’s, that’s, that’s a treatment that they still use for people with seizures, who, you know, they have to have no, no carb, zero carb, just keto just to their energy comes from ketones. I know we’re getting into the weeds, but I think we can, every individual is different. I know for me, now that my depression how I handle is Know thyself. It is I have to shift into reception, I have to experience extra reception, dissociation through, you know, I have to balance that because I can get to in my head and ruminating. Yes, I know, my anti inflammatory when my I’m inflamed. I am much more prone. I know when I haven’t gotten sleep, I’m much more prone. So it’s sort of like I keep I do my own science experiment. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  08:39

Likewise, likewise, I Yeah, yep. I look at my triggers, too. And sleep is a big one for me. If, if I don’t sleep properly, I will cry. At the drop of the head, I am highly emotional, right? If I don’t sleep well,

Heidi Moss Erickson  08:58

right. And stress does that too. So the one brain thing I can say that’s that is location is that when we have a lot of cortisol or stress, there’s this shift in who takes control who’s holding the steering wheel, and the one that’s reactive and and emotional or impulsive, will take over. Because stress means danger means I got to react. And so I think that’s where you can start to see some patterns of location or you know, they call it you know, our executive function or prefrontal cortex, all these things that can dominate and control keep things under wraps will then get ganged up on by the parts of the brain. They’re going Nope, I am in an emergency girl, you know, I’m going to take over you can’t drive anymore. So I think those are the kinds of things that they do know in terms of parts and relationships,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  09:55

because there’s no brain imaging equipment is there. There’s nothing that we can use, although sorry. Yeah, Dr. Daniel Armin. Okay. He has some sort of imagery thing that he uses to look at the brain and see if there’s brain damage. Yeah. And I love that anyone that his daughter dates, he puts them under that machine to

Heidi Moss Erickson  10:24

talk about the like Inquisition, right? Like, oh my gosh, if that technology is going to be like, because pretty soon they’re gonna have you know, fMRI, they already have headsets, like you could just have in your house. I’m gonna, yep, come on. And boys, I want to put this on your head. So the thing about imagery is you’re you’re checking this is gonna get maybe too scientific, you’re, every imagery is checking for a different thing. So MRI, fMRI is blood flow. So what does that tell you? Well, those things in that moment are getting attention from blood, which means oxygen, which means energy. So those regions are getting energy, but the timescale of it, that’s what we have to revisit, is that if anyone’s been to a planetarium, I know when I go, and they say, like, this is a million light years, and this is 10 billion light years, I have no concept of the difference, right? It’s like, it’s big as sorry, right? It’s like, it’s like, all I know, is that is a lot. It’s a lot. And so it’s same thing in reverse. So what fMRI is limited is that you’re taking an image when the bloods already there, and the timescale is much bigger and not precise, you don’t know whether that’s happening after the thought or at the thought or in this kind of slices of time, which is how the brain operates. So that’s where some of the imaging is not helpful, in terms of some of these things that we feel are so quick, and, or even predictively. Quick, in terms of the vocal research, which is what I love is that they do it on open brain electrodes. So the person’s brain, they’re doing it on seizure patients. So all of the vocal motor mapping was on people who had their brains exposed in surgery with electrodes on. And unfortunately, we can’t do that kind of imagery for the things that we’re talking about. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  12:28

Because I think what he was referring to, when I listened to back when I think back to his interviews, is that there are times a person presents with certain poor behaviours, poor habits, addictions. And we think that that person can be let’s just label them as a bad person. They do things that are not good. They make not good choices. Yeah,

Heidi Moss Erickson  12:59

they’re impulsive, or yeah, they’re impulsive. Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  13:03

or they can be violent. And he has said that he’s proven that a lot of the time when you put these people under these brain imaging equipment, these scans are, I think it’s a scan. Yeah. He finds that there is actual brain damage, that there is something physically going on with the brain that impacts that person’s behaviour. Yeah, triggers that behaviour that causes that behaviour. Right. And by improving that person’s brain health, and there are ways to improve brain health, that that person changes their behaviour over a period of time. And often we can sustain a brain injury without realising it could have been a bump on the head as a kid, it could have been a concussion, it could have been on the football field. It could have been Yes, on the snowfields, whatever it is, yeah, we could have actually sustained a brain injury and not known about it that’s causing a lot of that behaviour, or those symptoms that we’re experiencing. Yes,

Heidi Moss Erickson  14:17

TBI, that traumatic brain injury field, particularly for American football is huge. And unfortunately, they can’t image that in except for post mortem, because it’s these small proteins. So but there’s a lot of suspicion of people who have had these behavioural changes from head injury, that they have this kind of brain damage. So there’s the micro damage, and then there’s the macro damage, and the reversibility. Again, there’s some things that are reversible and some things not about what I like about this brain health brain metabolism, particularly with like something like schizophrenia is that this change is so dramatic. For someone like that when you optimise the brain health, and then you see depression or bipolar or schizophrenia alleviated through that. It’s very empowering. So I think, you know, it’s so complex, it’s sort of like just saying the word cancer, you know, there are so many kinds of cancers. There’s so many kinds of brain issues that I think you know it. What I’m hoping for is that the wild type we call a wild type, you know, the people who we have a range of mental illness and things that are changeable, to provide that empowerment to do that. Yeah.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  15:39

So does our brain health impact things such as decision making?

Heidi Moss Erickson  15:46

1,000%, because we’re making decisions again, in that predictive way, we’re weighing information to, you know, impulsivity is huge, right? And there are people who even it’s a side effect of antidepressants, to be honest with you, I was actually more suicidal on higher dose SSRIs, which is ironic, but that’s a blackbox warning on them, it actually has the warning that in some people because you’re increasing, you know, you’re trying to you’re shifting the balance of serotonin. And when you do that, there’s an impulsivity associated with that. So that, you know, again, it’s knowing thyself communicating with your doctor, if you’re taking meds and you’re having these kinds of feelings to know that, you know, maybe I need to try something else or lower the dose. So decision making is affected by brain chemistry for sure. And experience and so I think that’s something again, it in the moment, you know, it’s like the five second rule, right? It’s, you know,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  16:47

love Mel Robbins. Yes, love.

Heidi Moss Erickson  16:51

Right. So we need that five second rule sometimes in decision making to sort of take stock, you know, whether you’re sending an email, I was the queen of like, babbling emails, and it’s like, send. No, you do like Kurt would say, my husband would say, you know, strong verb short sentences. You don’t need to write like, you know, a 5000 word essay, when you’re sending an email about something

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  17:15

you tell some of the people on the social media forums in our seeking voice community to stop can actually I’m never sworn, oh, you’re gonna swear? Yeah, I’m so I want to say, shut the fuck up. And not say that in two words that everyone understands. Like, yes. It’s like a PhD

Heidi Moss Erickson  17:44

thesis.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  17:45

What are you trying to prove here? Like, just shut up?

Heidi Moss Erickson  17:51

Yes, I call it I have another naughty term for it. It’s not a swear. But it’s an I call it intellectual masturbation.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:02

Wait, hold that a wanker in Australia?

Heidi Moss Erickson  18:06

Because that’s what they’re doing. It’s like, if you’re writing something that long. It’s really not for the purpose of educating, you know? Yeah.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:14

And all the people that engage with it. Stop feeding the ego. Yeah.

Heidi Moss Erickson  18:19

And I admit, I can be guilty of that when I’m enthusiastic about something. Yes. And so I have to sort of temper that but I think I can tell the difference between people are just a doozy. allistic versus look at all that I know, in one post, you know, yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:35

exactly. And we’re getting way off the track and you’ve made me swear,

Heidi Moss Erickson  18:39

I did I feel I feel pride and guilt all at the same time. So you can analyse that thought process. What are those like angel and devil pride and guilt? Okay, yes. Yes, exactly.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:52

So what about the brains of people that have addictions? Like alcoholism, gambling? I’ve heard a very interesting thing very recently, about people with alcoholism having a thing called Wet brain. Ah, yeah, it starts to impact their memory and they start to develop symptoms, not unlike someone with Alzheimer’s or dementia. Yes.

Heidi Moss Erickson  19:21

So, again, I’m not an expert, but I can speak to the fundamental principle of what addiction is an even phone addiction, to be honest with you people are on their phones all the time. So we evolved a wonderful wonderful system now dopamine and serotonin due to you know, a lot more things than this. So I want to have that caveat there not solely for these two things. But dopamine is something that say if I’m a hunter gatherer a cave person, and I am hungry, I have not eaten for days. I have high dopamine. In, that motivates me to go look for food. Right now once I find it, serotonin comes along and says, You found it, now you’re happy, I don’t need that much dopamine anymore, the dopamine actually drops below baseline when you find the food. So it’s below the normal level. So that way you stay where you found the food and you eat it and you enjoy it and you bond with your community. And you know, you get a good night’s sleep, right? There’s reasons why you want your dopamine after that hit, to go below baseline, because you need to stay where you are, get sleep and eat. Now what happens with addiction is, it’s a dopamine hit, right? It’s, it’s, it has a chemistry that increases your dopamine, yes. And every time you get a hit that goes, it goes below baseline. So you’re going to need more to get at the level that you wanted before. And you repeat that process, you’re never getting the rest period of where dopamine is just not being triggered. And I think that’s where that whole memory because the system’s not wired to have it on all the time. It’s like leaving your electricity on all day, you know, your battery’s gonna run out. And I think people because things like sleep, all these other chemical things that need to have this variation are just on overdrive all the time. And so that’s sort of what that is. And as I said, phones are doing it to kids right now, you know, over too much light, too much stimulation will trigger that. And then you’re never getting that it’s always going below and you need more and more and more and more. I have someone

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  21:47

close to me at the moment, who and I can clearly see this whole dopamine thing playing out where this person is constantly seeking those dopamine hits. without realising I can see the behaviour for example, that person will be on their phone, on social media playing some kind of video that’s been uploaded, where there’s a lot of like yelling and swearing and or activity, or loud music, but will also have the TV on in the background with Game of Thrones or walking dead. And then with some alcohol and see I’m the opposite. I like quiet. Yeah, I actually believe it or not, I don’t really engage much on social media, even though I’m on there all the time. I have someone do it for me. Because yeah, I don’t deal with social media. I like calm. Yeah, but I can see this dopamine mean, because people don’t realise even scary movies. Right up those dopamine hits. Yeah.

Heidi Moss Erickson  23:00

And for things like that. There’s another thing, there’s the adrenaline component, right? So then you’re adding a, you know, a more complex thing, because adrenaline and stress. That’s what scary movies do and violence, and those kinds of things are increasing adrenaline, so then you get that response as well. So there’s all of these things that are, again, not our cave person biology, they’re, they’re added in our social structures that are actually doing damage to humans, our attention spans have gone way down. Because of that, you know, people don’t sit and read and talk or make music.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:40

That’s this person, as well. attention span of a snow pea. A snow pea

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:55

set up,

Heidi Moss Erickson  23:56

I love it. I’m gonna steal it the attention span of a snow pea. Everyone put that in the vernacular. It’s perfect. And I

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  24:02

want to see that in the dictionary next.

Heidi Moss Erickson  24:08

So that’s yeah, so that’s what we’re doing to ourselves. And I think even the news cycle, right, we’re getting, you know, when I was growing up, you know, we had two TV stations, there was news only once in a while. Think of all of the stress we have by knowing what’s go all the horror that is going on. I mean, it’s important to be knowledgeable about the world, but when we’re just constantly everything’s apocalyptic. That is not healthy for our biology. I do news fast. I do social media fasts. That’s hard for me, but I know when I’m on social media too long, I get depressed. I know it I’m saying it out loud. But I do it anyway. And it’s it’s it’s this terrible, terrible process that I think we’re all a part of that fabric and it’s really hard to break because it’s integrated in our culture, especially for our kids. You know,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  24:58

they can’t switch off, they cannot switch off. And and you have to know and be self aware as well. Like for me, I can’t watch any, any action shows any horror, any suspense. Anything that has bad news at night time after I say 730 at night. Yep, that I watch reality TV show that is so brain numbing. And people, people do not believe that I’ve watched all the Real Housewives show. I watched below deck. I watched all those shows. And they put me to sleep.

Heidi Moss Erickson  25:40

Yeah. See, that’s the background. It’s like, because if you were a cave person, you would have that natural human drama going on in the background as you were sleeping. You’d have some real housewives that were cave people. Wow, with New Jersey accents, because I’m from New Jersey. Yeah,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  25:57

I Oh, you know, they’re crazy people.

Heidi Moss Erickson  26:01

But that’s so what I’m saying is I do I’m the same way like I’ll have, sometimes I have to fall asleep with background humans talking in some way. Because I’m not processing the information. I’m just hearing the social thing. You know, I’m not alone or isolated. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  26:18

And one thing we haven’t touched on is cortisol. How does that impact? Yeah,

Heidi Moss Erickson  26:23

the cortisol, it’s actually an adrenal secretion. It’s not in the brain, but it impacts the brain. And cortisol isn’t all bad, it gets a bad rap. It’s, it’s, we need it for learning, you need a little bit of stress to motivate you, you need a little you always get a little cortisol hit in the morning. But the effect of chronic stress and chronic cortisol is that it floods the system. And that actually lowers high cortisol lowers dopamine. So then it takes over. It’s like the energy source. It’s like the stress energy. So there’s a difference between normal, happy energy that sort of, you know, versus stress energy, we all feel it, you know, when you’re hyped up from stress, not from what is a natural, you know, I mean, stress is natural, but the body’s on alert with cortisol. So it is energetic, but it’s not the energy you want. I know, chronically, right? You don’t want the stress energy all the time? Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  27:25

because I have been in that state. And you can actually feel it physically moving through your body. It’s like electric currents, yes, running through your body. I had that after I finished my PhD. Because I was doing that on a full time load while I was working full time. And I was in that state for quite a fixed amount of time, long period of time. So it was really hard to switch off even after I pressed send, yes, submit, I didn’t realise the impact that was going to have in my cell structure of my body, for sure. So what of the smallest things we could do today, to help us improve our brain health and our mindset?

Heidi Moss Erickson  28:18

I think first and this is the hardest, but the day, we have these natural peaks and valleys in our energy level during the day, I think we need this kind of idea of back to back to back to back to back hours and hours and hours of work without breaks is not good for our brain health. And it’s hard when you need when you’re living in a society that way I do try to schedule chunks of lessons rather than a swath of you know, that’s just for me. So I think it’s how we structure our day. Because the brain needs time to rest. Rest is where actually memory is consolidated. And memory doesn’t just have to be what you’re learning memory is just existing as a human and processing. And when you’re attending all the time, you’re not getting that brain where the hippocampus goes, communicates with the neocortex and they have this little party where things get consolidated. So you’re missing out on a really important, I have a little YouTube video on that on what is happening during rest, not just sleep, it happens during sleep, but little rest during the day and it doesn’t take much you can do five minutes, 10 minutes, but it has to be non attentive. You can go for a walk, that’s the optic flow kind of rest. You can meditate but we don’t do enough of that and our brains are then getting depleted metabolically. Diet Of course, you know, processed things and you know, people think glucose why, you know, glucose is brain energy. My brain needs that too. too much glucose feeds the inflammatory cells too. And it’s those guys that are creating these cytokines and all of these inflammatory things that will flood the brain and create like I get migraines as soon as I started cutting, paying attention to brain metab metabolism, my mood improved. I didn’t get migraines as much my Bell’s palsy wasn’t as hyper. So we can do a lot with diet. Yes, but you have to know thyself that can, yes, it’s not, you know, not just overall health and exercise. But I think, think think like a cave person. That’s going to be my TED Talk.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  30:38

I’m kidding. But I mean, I think you should. Yeah,

Heidi Moss Erickson  30:41

it’s like cavewoman biology. You know, that’s, that’s what I think we’re missing out on. Yeah.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  30:47

And it can be simple things. I think, too. Like, if you park the car somewhere, don’t go to the nearest car park to where you’re walking to get the car park furtherest away. So you have to walk that little bit further.

Heidi Moss Erickson  31:04

Exactly, exactly. Little things

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  31:06

like that. Like if you have three biscuits with your morning tea, yeah. Back to to him, and then try one if you have sugar in your coffee. And you have Yeah, two sugars. Try one sugar. Like it’s tiny things, all these little achievable things make the sum of together a huge change. 1,000%.

Heidi Moss Erickson  31:31

I love that you said that? Because that is exactly right. And I think we’re in a culture where people want instant results. And that’s a mindset thing, we have to know that little steps will accumulate and make big changes. And to be patient have poise and patience and mindfulness and being in the present moment can help with that. Because if we say, Oh, I wish I lost 10 pounds, or I wished you know, you’re thinking of the goal. It has to be mindful and just know that time is your friend in this, these little steps. So it goes against society, unfortunately. But that’s we’re all going to be rebellious, right? Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  32:15

we are not going to set ourselves up for failure here. We’re going to set ourselves up for a win. Yes, from an judgemental place.

Heidi Moss Erickson  32:25

Exactly. We are empowered, we can take control over these things. Absolutely.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  32:29

So in summing up, what’s the impact of all of this for us, as teachers and for the people that they were working with those students that come into our studios? Who are anxious? How do we help those people? Because I know there’s a lot of talk about trauma informed pedagogy which overlaps into some of this. What are your thoughts on all of that?

Heidi Moss Erickson  32:58

Well, the favourite expression I’ll give is, you know, we try not to use don’t language in the studio, right? It’s don’t or someone once said, to me, it’s like, don’t think of a person in a red suit, you know, your brain is going to go to that don’t. I think the issue I have with trauma informed voice pedagogy is that we are planting a word trauma, into a vernacular into a space where I feel it doesn’t belong. That’s not saying that people don’t have trauma in their lives. It’s just that that word is a negative power of suggestion. There is vernacular trauma, sort of how people talk about it. And then there’s sort of what’s in the literature. And everyone has had trauma. Yes, basically, we could all say, I could list things. But what’s I think what this trauma informed pedagogy is referring to is actually PTSD, because not all trauma will manifest in something that is so strong in someone now that it needs to be addressed in this moment. Even what just happened to me six weeks ago, I wouldn’t say I have PTSD right now, even though that’s a trauma, but some people would say maybe take that with them and and use that as something that they want to revisit and revisit. And I don’t think that’s healthy. But that’s just me. I don’t maybe don’t want to go into that because that can be controversial. And I know it is yes, but what I want to say is in in a singer space, we do want to provide a space that doesn’t trigger a right or that someone feels safe and without overstepping our bounds of expertise. Even someone who was trained in trauma informed vocal pedagogy, it’s still not the level of training that I think warrants that serious of a approach. But what I do advocate is empathy informed because we can all be trained to be empathetic love, love, love. And so we can all learn to feel, you know, to be able to look at a person empathetically and assess where they’re if someone comes in and they’re exhausted, you know, I know I can craft the lesson a little differently to embrace where they’re at. We can do things that are maybe you know, more relaxing, or if someone comes in anxious, I do what I call a homeostasis, check, we’ll do a couple forward bends, or we’ll do some closing our eyes and breathe in imagining vocal things that are still within my purview. I’m not giving them things that are outside of that, but it’s like, okay, let’s, and then they’re in the bubble of the room. And I think that’s what we want to give that we want to give them our expertise, they’re there to sing, after all, that’s why they came, they came because they love to sing, they want to sing. And I feel once they’ve made that step, our job is not to talk about their trauma, or figure it out, our job is to have empathy to give them that bubble, where they can experience singing in the fullest way, and that I can give my expertise in the fullest way. And that’s sort of how I view it. It’s

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  36:22

creating a pathway within the singing voice studio to access their sound. Right, without all the therapy,

Heidi Moss Erickson  36:32

right. And some people say, you know, I’ve read some papers on, you know, trauma informed just because I wanted to be educated before I you know, because I had an opinion about it. But I wanted to educate myself. And so one of the things that was brought up is emotions in a piece that can be triggering. So once you’re already singing, that singing is a very emotional, creative art form that can trigger things in people. So how do you address that? Again, I think getting into someone’s personal boundaries of why they’re crying, sometimes I just, you know, if someone I’ve had people cry in my class, and I just embraced it, because it’s beautiful. They’re, you know, they’re expressing. And other times we can play with a different character that may feel you know, if it’s something that’s really sad and heavy, it’s like, let’s play it like you’re a cabaret singer, you know, smoking a cigarette with a glass of scotch, and, you know, that can shift the way they’re experiencing the song, you know?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  37:35

Yes, that’s such a hard one. Because I’ve been in a couple of different situations. One, obviously, where a student has cried, because they’ve connected so deeply in that moment in time with what there was singing, and I just give them a hug. Yeah, I you know, and I go, wow, that you must have needed that. You know, like something like that. No judgement. Exactly. I have been the student that has cried in someone’s lesson. Yep. And I was given a box of tissues and told to get over it.

Heidi Moss Erickson  38:14

That is not empathy informed pedagogy. No,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  38:18

no. And I have been the teacher that has cried when a student has sung because it was so beautiful. And my students know that I do that. And they’re okay with that. Yes, I are in the tears. Yes. And I just say there was such a beauty about what you just did that I just, yeah, that was the response. It’s okay. Yeah. And

Heidi Moss Erickson  38:43

I’ve checked all those boxes you just checked as well, myself. And I think how you worded it is, is perfect is like I think, both except for the handling the tissue. That’s not no, that’s not me. No, but I think that idea of, there’s empathy in what you do, whether you cry or your student cries, there’s empathy, and there’s also you’ve created a safe space. And I think that’s, that’s, I think that’s what we need to do. We don’t need to diagnose. We don’t need to have a 12 step plan for dealing with someone’s trauma or even know what it is. I think it’s just, you know, someone felt, it’s amazing that someone felt vulnerable enough to experience that emotion. That means they feel safe, and the singing was a way to express and I think that’s a beautiful thing. I don’t want to have to look at any thing like that as a negative that I need to react to, in a concerned trauma way. It’s just and again, there’s a million different forms of trauma, but I feel like if they came to that lesson, they’re there to sing. Exactly. And that’s why they’re they’re there. And if they wanted to deal with their trauma, they would be going going to a therapist. So I think that’s where we know our role is that they’re coming to our space because they want to feel safe and they want to sing. What

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  40:09

about you, though? As the teacher, we’re going to start wrapping this up now. Yes. As you’ve been so kind with your time. No, no, no. What about you as the teacher when you’re struggling? Yes.

Heidi Moss Erickson  40:21

And that’s happened recently, I found and I’m wondering if all teachers feel this, that, yes, when I am giving in that setting, I feel better. So that’s part of the call it they call it generative. Like when I’m being generative, creating and helping and experiencing that thing. I feel better. And I know that about myself. Yes. I think if I’m feeling low energy, you know, I will do some breath things, or I will, but I’m always giving myself to that student. And that makes me feel better.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  40:58

And what about like, because when my mom passed away last year, yeah, I would check in with myself, I would shower myself and my teaching space with love, and kindness. Yes, no judgement, and empathy. 1,000%

Heidi Moss Erickson  41:17

Empathy is that two way street for yourself, you know, there’s something called the you know, like loving kindness, you know, and I know, it sounds hippie ish. But there is that kind of meditation where you’re, you’re really, it has to come from you giving to yourself, as well as giving to your student. And I think that is the healthy way to do it. And then you’re creating a positive environment for everybody. And it’s hard to do sometimes when you feel like you’ve had a loss. You know, I went back to teaching about two weeks after this happened. Yeah. And you know, everybody knew. So everyone was very gracious. But as soon as we started, I just realised being generative. Moving, you know, being present was really helpful. And I think it was helpful for the students to people can sometimes feel scared if they know something about your personal life to interact with you. So this was this was nice. Yeah, yes. But empathy informed pedagogy all around.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  42:18

Okay, well, maybe you need to write about that.

Heidi Moss Erickson  42:21

Yeah,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  42:22

I will. Maybe that’s the next chapter for you. Yeah. Any last pieces of advice for our singing voice, community and beyond in regards to what we’ve been talking about today? I think I want

Heidi Moss Erickson  42:37

people to leave, feeling empowered, that we are capable of amazing things as humans. And even though the world right now is not helping us achieve that. There still are paths you can take to really find, know yourself, and no happiness and no resilience. And again, leading with empathy for yourself and for your students. And whether you’re tapping into the brain, the body, the environment, all of those things as a whole. There’s hope. beacons of light. I love that.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  43:21

And if I can add something as well, Heidi, yes, yes. My, my very first interview was with Elizabeth blades, who was a very dear friend. And she said in that interview, this too shall pass. Now, I’ve never heard that before, believe it or not, maybe it’s not an Australian thing that we say here. But, you know, a lot of what happens and is going on, it is a moment in time, yes. And next week, or tomorrow, or in an hour’s time. Maybe it will pass. And whatever you’re thinking in that moment, wherever your head is at in that moment, if only we can remember that. Yes. You know, because I think about my husband committing suicide. Yeah. And I think, you know what, it was a moment in time, if only he had allowed the next moment. Yes. Yes. And and that’s, that’s the hard thing. That’s the hard pill to swallow. Yes.

Heidi Moss Erickson  44:31

Because and I am your I am so sorry that you went through that and I had the same Oh, I had the same thought that one moment of that decision. Yes. changes everything. Yes. And, and knowing what time is and how feelings and roll and yes, this too shall pass. Seasons have been a metaphor. For me, sometimes is that that that natural flow that you will get winter, you will get dark you will get sun. And but each time you will get sun after the dark. And you know whether it’s daily things or, and it is hard to see when you’re in it. Yes, that’s very hard to see. So training that and making people aware. So that if they come upon that maybe that little seed will stay in their brains that it will pass. Like we just want to give one seed of hope to people who are feeling that way. And I come across these feelings too sometimes, you know, so I’m speaking to myself to have there can be dark thoughts that have to just know that it will pass. So, yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  45:53

and you know what, you’ve always got a friend here. Yes. And you too. You know what you can call me at any time of the night or day if you need someone to talk with.

Heidi Moss Erickson  46:05

Thank you. And I say the same to you. I think we need this. Yeah, sometimes we feel alone, we need to know that there are people around us and we can feel. So I feel you through the ether I’m squeezing you right now. Can you see or wait, I can do this. And I think a heart will like, there you go. Look at that. Oh, sorry, I’m giving a heart. So we give our hearts to anyone listening, that there is hope. You’re never alone. And this too shall pass.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  46:37

I love you, my friend. I love you. Thank you so much for sharing and for being so vulnerable. Thank you to you know, this was not a pity party here, people. This was not about us. Looking for attention seeking anything from anybody. We we decided that we would speak our truth. Because we wanted to let people realise that there is hope. Yes, that you’re not alone. You’re not the only person who is going through what you’re going through. And we love you and we care for you. And please seek help us. Please seek out your suffering. Don’t you don’t need to do this by yourself. Yes. Thank you. And you know what, what we’ll do too, is share any links to any papers or anything that you have that you think yeah, beneficial for our listeners too. But yes, so much for your time. Heidi,

Heidi Moss Erickson  47:39

thank you as always, I adore you. I adore you, too. I want to kidnap you and put you in a figurine and have you sit on my desk so I can talk to you all the time. I

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:49

want to put you in my switch Take care, my friend you too.

Heidi Moss Erickson  47:57

Thank you. Bye. Bye.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  48:01

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of a voice and beyond. I hope you enjoyed it as now is an important time for you to invest in your own self care, personal growth and education. Use every day as an opportunity to learn and to grow so you can show up feeling empowered and ready to live your best life. If you know someone who will also be inspired by this episode, please be sure to copy and paste the link and share it with them. Or share it on social media and use the hashtag a voice and beyond. I promise you I am committed to bringing you more inspiration and conversations just like this one every week. And if you’d like to help me, please rate and review this podcast and cheer me on by clicking the subscribe button on Apple podcast right now. I would also love to know what it is that you most enjoyed about this episode and what was your biggest takeaway? Please take care and I look forward to your company next time on the next episode of a voice and beyond.