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Episode Transcription

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  00:00

Hi it’s Marisa Lee here, and I’m so excited to be sharing today’s interview round episode with you. In these episodes, our brilliant lineup of guests will include healthcare practitioners, voice educators, and other professionals who will share their stories, knowledge and experiences within their specialized fields to empower you to live your best life. Whether you’re a member of the voice, community, or beyond your voice is your unique gift. It’s time now to share your gift with others develop a positive mindset and become the best and most authentic version of yourself to create greater impact. Ultimately, you can take charge, it’s time for you to live your best life. It’s time now for a voice and beyond. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  01:16

How many of us have been told that we can’t sing or that we can’t hold a tune in a bucket or just being told, please don’t sing. Whether we hear this from a family member, a singing teacher, or as I did from a choral director when I was at high school. This kind of discouragement can potentially silence many who will choose never to sing again. In this episode, our guest is Linor Oren, who is a singing teacher from Amsterdam, who didn’t sing until she was 21 years old because of the impact of her father’s words and actions as a child when he relentlesly and unknowingly pushed her away from singing. Linor shares with us how she finally discovered the joy of singing. However, once she launched into her performance career as a professional opera and musical theater singer, she discovered that she suffered terribly from performance anxiety as a consequence of these childhood experiences. Linor tells us how these lived experiences ultimately led her into a teaching career where she has developed a specific training program called sing well. Her teaching philosophy behind the program has been inspired from a need to help other singers overcome all the obstacles she has been confronted with on her journey of discovering her own voice. Linor also has a popular YouTube channel with millions of views from almost 60,000 subscribers, and she talks about one particular video where she conducted a social experiment with approximately 20 willing participants. She asked people in a local park how many of them had been told they could not sing and the consequences this had on them ever singing again. The results are surprising and to hear what happens you must listen to this episode with Linor Oren. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  03:56

Hey there Linor Oren all the way from Amsterdam. How are you?

Linor Oren  04:02

I’m doing great. How are you? 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  04:04

Yeah, really good. Thank you. Now I believe you’ve just had COVID?

Linor Oren  04:09

I did. It’s been quite mild and manageable. But I still have a little bit of ehe-ehem. So yeah, to all students out there. Please don’t imitate my voice right now.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  04:19

Yeah, and I’m going to share something too. I actually have COVID right now. And I’m still testing positive but I’m here. There’s no one around me. So I’m not I’m spreading the love but I’m not spreading the germs. But you know this is-

Linor Oren  04:40

And you’re just like serene powerhouse. There’s not like you don’t see anything on your face and the your energy looks impeccable.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  04:49

I tell you what, that’s what being in the industry for over 45 years does to you. And you learn the show goes on and you bury everything. And then you get off stage and you die in a fetal position somewhere. And sub sub uncontrollably No, that’s very dramatic. But anyway, Linor, it’s down to you. Now you’re a singing teacher from Amsterdam, your business is Sing Well. And you teach across all styles, mainly hop styles, and musical theater, yet you come from a classical background, and I’m so excited to talk to you, because it’s lovely to get a European perspective. Most of the perspectives that we have out there are usually from the US or the UK, and there’s some of us here in Australia, but to have someone representing and waving the flag for Europe is fantastic. So welcome to the show.

Linor Oren  05:57

Thank you, I do have to rain a little bit on that parade. Okay. I don’t feel I can presume to represent the European perspective so well, because I come from Israel. So I’m more of a Mediterranean when it comes to temper and personality, I suppose. But also, when I moved to Europe, I did study with an American teacher. But I also studied with other teachers, and some of them were European. So I do have that perspective. I know a little bit of of the, you know, trends, especially in the opera world, and how they differ from the American approach to opera, you know, they have different typecasting sort of, like fashions. So those are really different in Europe than they are in the US.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  06:47

Well, it’s good to have your perspective. Anyway, I do want to ask a question, seeing as you were born in Israel, you did move to Berlin, which I know about, and we’re going to talk about that I do. Now you’re in Amsterdam, you had an American teacher. So my question is, if you were in Beijing right now, in the Winter Olympics, what country would you represent?

Linor Oren  07:20

Oh, I think everybody would think I’m Spanish, then probably Spain. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  07:25

Really? 

Linor Oren  07:27

Yeah, I get that a lot.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  07:28

I get that too. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  07:30

But I do Spanish-

Linor Oren  07:31

Yeah, I can see that. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  07:32

Even though I’m Italian, but I do have Spanish ancestry too, and the Italians don’t think I’m Italian anyway. When I go to Italy, they think I’m Spanish. So, I don’t know, I would be fly the Australian flag. Anyway, let’s get started. 

Linor Oren  07:47

I would be happy to represent the Netherlands if they would have me. I would happy to represent any country. But I always feel like I’m not really attached to geography. I’m really like, wherever I am, I need to do my thing. And I need to have my people. And I don’t really care where I am. That’s how I feel.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  08:08

Yeah. Good on you. All right. You grew up in Israel. Now, was singing culturally accepted over there?

Linor Oren  08:17

Yeah. Singing as in singing for fun? or do you mean singing professionally?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  08:22

Yeah, even professionally for fun, professionally and what kind of music were you listening to when you were growing up?

Linor Oren  08:29

Yeah, my parents would listen to all these, you know, a lot of 60s and 70s. Music, a lot of Beatles and a lot of Israeli music from that time. And so that’s what I grew up on. The classical music came a little bit later, when I was around eight or nine, we had a neighbor, which we’re still friends to this day with, with his family and very, very strong connection. And his daughter is my best friend. And he is a musician. And he was sort of like, nudging me in the direction of taking recorder lessons first and piano lessons then going into music schools. So I had my own color culture, I guess private culture to train as a musician, but in general, there is not a lot of opportunities for professional musicians and singing in Israel. Well, it’s a small country.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  09:24

They are in Eurovision. 

Linor Oren  09:25

Yes, yeah, we are in the Eurovision and we love you know, we love singing as an entertainment. We sing in the holidays all the time. And, and we have those reality TV shows. We have the voice we used to have we had the show called The Next Star or Stars Born something like that. Yeah. So people love that in Israel, but they don’t really necessarily think oh, this is something that people do as you know as a living.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  09:55

But as a child you didn’t sing now there’s a very interesting story that you shared with me. So as much as there was all this music around you, you actually would not sing. So do you want to share your story about the impact of your father’s actions?

Linor Oren  10:14

Yes, yeah, I mean, I did share it on my about a year hear. So my dad has a very big passion for specifically my singing for some reason. I’m the eldest. And he just realized at some point that he liked my voice. And he wanted me to say, and when whenever I started being self conscious, I would decline that he would tell me saying, and I would say no. And he did that a little bit obsessively. So he would sometimes in a car, turn the radio off and say, Okay, now you say something, or he would, you know, come to me, it’s like, send me something. And that’s not how it works that I don’t want to do this right now. Yeah. So I felt like the spotlight was really on me. And it made me very shy and very nervous. And it just, it became a little bit of a snowball. Like, the more I resisted to sing to him, the more he would like, wait for it to happen. One time I asked him, like, why, why are you like, even on my, on my nerves about it? Like I never seen. So why do you say that? You want me to think like, Why do you even think that I have a good voice? Because he would keep saying that you have such a good voice. But you think so nicely? How do you know, I haven’t sung like forever. And he said, I hear it in your laughter. And looking back, that was amazing to me, as he has no training of any kind, and not in singing and not the music at all. It was just something he picked up on. And I think he has this passion, this hidden passion for singing himself. He likes singing just you know, for the lulz. But he also grew up knowing that he can sing, because that’s what people told him. And that’s also a very big part of, of how I approach singing right now. I’m a little bit allergic to people saying I can’t sing or this person cannot sing. Because all it takes is just a music teacher telling you when you’re seven that you have no talent based on what I don’t know. And it turned out to not be true. My dad has a really nice voice and he doesn’t even sing how to tune. It does sing out of tune when my mom sings and he tries to match her key. And it’s not in his range. Yeah, so his voice just files away in the middle. And that’s something that happens a lot, right? And a lot of people and then they say, Oh, I can’t see. I think it could just not be the key for you.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  12:48

That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. So I just want to unpack a couple of things here, when you were growing up, and your father was telling you to sing. And it got to it what you believe to be an obsessive place? Did you feel that he was trying to shame you?

Linor Oren  13:07

No, no.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  13:08

So, what was the story or the narrative that was going through your head? When the more you resisted, the more he pushed?

Linor Oren  13:18

That’s a good question. It was clear to me that he did it out of love. I can’t, it was clear to me that he did it because he really wanted me to say and because he loved my voice because he loved me. It was never from a mean place. But it really it really rubbed me the wrong way. And and we talked also a little bit about why that was. It has to do with the fact that I I felt like I was taking an attention from someone else.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  13:47

So you in your mind when you were singing, you were taking the spotlight away from someone else. So you felt as you were finding your own voice. You were silencing anothers?

Linor Oren  14:02

Yes, that’s what I felt like, if I get the spotlight. If I get the love, then maybe my siblings wouldn’t. But yeah, I totally beat myself up. It was a little lifetime that I wasted. And that’s also one of the things that makes me passionate right now about people tail saying that they don’t they’re too or they don’t, they don’t think they can do it. You are wasting your time. Mm hmm. And we can waste our time even after we decide to learn singing. We find ways to waste time when we can be awesome instead.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  14:36

Then you start performing and you discover you have performance anxiety, so another obstacle. It sounds like to me there was a lot of self sabotaging going on. Yep. Problems in a perfectionism thing. What was your biggest obstacle when it came to performance anxiety

Linor Oren  14:59

I think for me, it was multiple things. It was very, I guess, primitive kind of feeling like what I went on to learn about it, and realize that this is an evolutionary kind of fear. And that made a lot of sense. To me, it felt like it was something that was not even me, it came, first of all, from that fear of the spotlight. And at first, it was a fear of success. It wasn’t the fear of failure, right? It was a fear of success and stealing the spotlight and thinking that maybe I’m not good enough for the spotlight. Or yeah, I’m afraid to make people jealous that I carried that on for years, also with colleagues, I would be hesitant to share my successes with them. So they’re not jealous of me. And so whenever it came to the like, the moment of truth going on stage, I was like, Maybe I don’t want to give all of myself here. Something in me wouldn’t dare to do that. So it was a little bit of that. And it was also, at a certain point, this expectation, okay, I learned some kind of cake. And I would have to happen. I have to do what I learned in the lessons. Yes. Because without that little improvement that I made to my voice, it don’t mean a thing. Like it’s like, it’s really good. And that’s a very strong misconception that a lot of people have. And I just, I felt that way. I felt like I’m, it’s never good enough. And whenever I find something that is better, there was the immediate expectation that now I’m going to be able to do that all the time. And if I can do that on stage, and I knew I couldn’t do that perfectly on stage. Yeah. Because the stage is a different situation, then it’s no good than I then it’s a failure. 

Linor Oren  17:05

So yeah, I, I didn’t really know where to seek help for it. I was going to college at the time. And I did at a certain point ask, there was one of the teachers gave a lecture there about performance. We never had, like a dedicated training for performance anxiety, or for stage skills or anything like that. But then I asked, What do you do? You know, if you go on stage, and you feel really nervous, and you have your heart attack, heart pounding, or parenting or you know, shaking, what do you do? And everybody laughed when I asked that, because I was considered to be one of the good ones. Yeah. And this also brings me back to the misconception. I mean, the fact that you don’t do your best on stage doesn’t mean that you’re not good. So I could give a good show, even when I was nervous. But in my mind, I had to get rid of the nerves to like, stop being nervous. So he really didn’t know exactly what to say. But he said one thing that was the essence, like the the most important thing that you can say, you have to do it anyway. And don’t fight it. So that no, that was the key point. You don’t you don’t fight the palpitations and the shaking. Stop them, and you move on. And that’s a very fundamental part of how I eventually got over it, because I did what he said. And I went on stage anyway, when I was feeling nervous, but I needed more tools to not, you know, have that feeling well, eventually shutting down. And that was a lot, a lot of trial and error. And it was an excruciating journey of many, many years. And eventually, I realized, okay, there are some things that I can do. Like I can repeat certain mantras. I can see what I need in the moment. But there is one thing that I know that works for me, I always go back to that example, because it’s just for me, very, very handy. I tend to build up tension in my shoulders. So if I feel that happening when I get nervous, and of course, that’s the first thing that happens, then I just go down. So I already practice that when I practice, right? I also practice that numerous times on stage. But just That’s my goal to say right now. So I remind myself that like a mantra like down now, and I realize there is a video actually that I talk about that on YouTube when I react to my own performance. I really remember what I said to myself while I was on stage, because while I was on stage, and it’s a recent performance race, relatively, I still have those thoughts like Oh, my God, you know, Oh, I’m nervous, oh, that note was bad, all those things that you would expect that I would get over them. They’re still there. But I have my go to things. So after a lot of trial and error, I realized, okay, there are some things that I can do on the spot. There are some things that I can do backstage, and there’s a whole mentality. That is, you don’t have to get rid of the nerves. You have to know what to do about them. I sort of came up with those things very, very slowly. Yeah, just to give you like a timescale. So you know, what, like, how long and terrible it was, from the first time that I started going on stage. Until the first time that I felt I had some kind of control over my voice, that I could decide, you know, on the moment, what to do with my voice to express with my voice on stage. That took three years? Well, that’s a process. Yeah. And until then, it was still okay. When I would go on stage. And I would prioritize my expression, I would prioritize, you know, the narrative, and I would sort of like, hope for the best with my voice. Yeah. And sometimes the okay, sometimes less, sometimes more, but I never had like, I could never tell what was gonna happen. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  21:31

Do you think that the audience could pick up that you were nervous? Or was it all in your mind?

Linor Oren  21:36

Maybe a little bit, but not in a bad way. Because a very early on. Luckily, I and that’s because I got inspiration from certain performers that I really like I saw them. And I said, that’s the influence that I want to have as a singer. On my audience, it was very clear to me that the most important thing is to give a good shower to give a good experience to the audience. So I would do everything I can to not let the nerves take over me. Like the worst thing is to just like a face when you make a bad or when you when you make a mistake, or like you don’t show it because they don’t deserve that. They deserve show from start to finish. So that was a very important principle that luckily, I could implement from the beginning. But I had very bad experiences auditioning. I didn’t like it. Ah, oh, yeah. It was not a good life. For me just traveling, trying to prove myself. It’s just something didn’t fit. Yeah, for me as a person to go through that. And also another mistake that I made that I just expected someone to take me under their wings, and give me a job. And today, I will probably do that differently. Oh, yeah. Also do stuff my own my own. And there’s so much stuff you can do. And I can coach other people now that I’m like old and wise. Still, my body doesn’t like the idea of going and pursuing a performance career because I felt that I was giving so many resources and not getting a lot back. Then I felt that it had very little to do with talent and a lot. Strategy and confidence. I made a lot of mistakes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:27

Do you think that because you went in you were auditioning for the classical world? I’m assuming? Yeah? Which is a very tough gig. And if there was an industry that requires perfectionism, is the classical world. Do you feel that your road would have been so much easier? If it was CCM?

Linor Oren  23:54

Probably, yeah. It’s true that technically, in opera, you’re supposed to have this amazing voice even through the entire range and perfect legato, blah, blah, blah. But actually, I mean, even if I went back and did it all over again, and I could give myself advice right now, I would say like, it’s, it’s less strict than you think, in the sense that it doesn’t really have to be perfect. You need to maybe give the illusion of perfect or you need to give the atmosphere of perfect bel canto voice. But everybody makes mistakes, even really, really good opera singers, sometimes they miss, but if they’re good, you know, I call it the nonstop principal in my in my stage course, if you just couldn’t tell you, and one of my favorite examples was Placido Domingo. When he went one time I sang an idea and the last note was supposed to be very high and long note. He ran out of air In the very beginning of the novel, so that’s like the biggest mistake that everybody likes freaks out like this and maybe cracking the voice cracking. Yeah. Is like the big freakout. Yeah. And it happened to him. And I have a friend who sat in the audience when that happened. And she said, it took me a few seconds to realize that it was actually happening, that there was actually no voice coming out of his mouth. Yeah, he just continued the facade. Like nothing happened. The ice is first. And the year follows that, and he really created that illusion of Yeah, that was my plan along to stop that note in the beginning.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  25:41

Yes. Well, I just want to know how many people here are actually still awake. I did that on purpose. I was testing you. To see if any one of you was asleep.

Linor Oren  25:55

Exactly. He was just bored. He wanted to mess with the audience.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  26:01

We’re gonna move along. So you went in you studied voice formally. In 2010, you moved to Berlin, where you studied with fantastic opera singer, and they had a huge impact on your career. And you became a professional opera singer for some time, then you move to Amsterdam. So what was the pool to Amsterdam? Why Amsterdam?

Linor Oren  26:27

Good question. Good question. So the credit goes to one of my good friends, Nanny navasana. She is a singer songwriter, an amazing one, a really fantastic singer, and she’s a good friend, and she lives in Amsterdam, she would nag me to come visit her relentlessly, really just non stop until I said, Okay. And it would take her sometimes years to select when you come to visit, whenever you come into visit when I come to visit. So the second time I went to visit her. It was just after I had a big breakup, my boyfriend at the time decided to pack all my things and email me that he packed my things and just basically flew me out to the street. And two months after that, that’s a very long story. But the best thing that has ever happened to me, and-

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  27:15

That’s the second worst breakup I’ve ever heard about. The other one was Sex in the City. And one of the girls was dumped by a post it note. This is your story. And we just wanted to throw it in.

Linor Oren  27:29

Yeah, absolutely. No, it was horrible. But I just have to say, as horrible as it was, the only way it gave me is forward. I thought I was gonna have babies with that guy. But once he did something like that, and I think he did that on purpose, by the way, I think he did that out of love. Yeah, he was going like, I’m gonna be the bastard here. And you’re gonna hate me and you’re gonna never want to take me back. And that’s exactly what happened. I never had those periods. Were like, Oh, I wish we could get back together. That was dead.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  28:01

No. Imagine if you had babies and he tried to pack the babies and put them on the street with a luggage. That would not have been good.

Linor Oren  28:14

Well, he would have done that immaculately because he was very organized. 

Linor Oren  28:20

He must have been a Virgo. 

Linor Oren  28:21

You know, I forgot his birthday. That’s a good.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  28:24

That’s a good sign. That means he’s wiped. That’s right. Can Yeah, story.

Linor Oren  28:31

Yeah, I feel feel that. Yeah, he did me a really good service dumping me like that. So two months after that, I went to Amsterdam to visit my friend. And I was on a dating mode, because that wasn’t my therapy at that point. So I went on shamelessly I’m gonna say I went on OkCupid. And I messaged a few guys. I’m like completely shameless.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  28:55

Is that like Tinder?

Linor Oren  28:57

It’s more in depth than Tinder. So you have a whole profile. You know everything about the person you answer, like multiple questions, they have an algorithm, blah, blah, blah, but you swipe. No, you don’t swipe. Now, you can like people or something like that. And then you see if they like you back or something. And you can also message them. And so I match just a few guys. And my husband, Eric was just on his bed, taking a nap. And then he heard this. And he’s like, should I answer it? should I mull in? And then he answered it. And here we are.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  29:31

Oh, oh, that’s a happy story. Yeah, yeah. We started with the suitcases on the street and we’ve ended up with a happy story.

Linor Oren  29:42

Yeah, now my life right now. I could not have had that amazing family that I have right now. He’s the most fantastic husband. I have two kids. It was my dream to have his I couldn’t be more grateful.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  29:56

That’s amazing. That’s beautiful. I’m very happy for You and now you have a fabulous studio as well in Amsterdam.

Linor Oren  30:05

Yeah. I’m not in Amsterdam anymore by teaching Amsterdam, right? I also teach here, so I live in Utrecht. Now we just recently moved to couldn’t live alone. And I still go to Amsterdam to teach. And I have a choir, too.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  30:21

Okay, so how did you develop your teaching approaches to the voice?

Linor Oren  30:27

Through blood I think, yeah. Blood, sweat, and tears.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  30:33

I was gonna say that sounds really messy.

Linor Oren  30:36

I’m overdramatizing it. Yeah, I think it was both all the mistakes I made and all the mistakes that were made with me. And hardship that I went through that, of course, taught me there is another way that basically gave me a few of my core principles as a teacher. But it was also just a general passion for teaching I’ve had that always I’ve always had a talent for teaching. And I felt like if I understand something, I can explain it to someone. And what happened is that what I started doing that, in the beginning, I more and more I started seeing my own problems on the students in the next step was that I realized I can do something about it, I can help that student. And the next step after that was, that means that I can take my own advice. And I can also teach myself, because I already know a bunch of stuff. Yes, then that what eventually made me a good singer, like really professional level singer, I had to slip out of the student mode, to be able to, to really like own what I want I have.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  31:43

You do have a method to the US as well. So how that all came together in bits and pieces from a number of different places, some maybe some of your own experiences, which you just said, and I know that you do have on my bachelor, okay. Was that in vocal pedagogy?

Linor Oren  32:04

No, it was just in vocal in classical singing. Funnily enough, we didn’t have pedagogy. And we have it now, in college that I went to. We didn’t have pedagogy for singers, right? Because the voice teachers were like, but that will mess up with my teaching method. Don’t teach them pedagogy. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, to your question. It was a it wasn’t some pieces. So I started learning that, you know, from my experience that way, doesn’t work. That way does work and experimenting with the students. And then I realized that can be a methodical way of doing things. And first and foremost, I realized that one should focus on one thing at a time. Yes. Because what I, what I realized from my training was that I had this amazing teacher that taught me all the technique that I know. But that was exactly what she did. She taught me all the techniques she knows, all at the same time. So I would go for a lesson, I would get the golden, you know, amazing technique, I will go home and I was like, Oh, this is good. This is good. Let’s continue with that. And I would come to her, I was like, Can we keep doing that thing? Because that really helped me? And she’s like, Yeah, sure. And then she would move on to something completely different. Because that’s how she is. There’s, he knows different teachers work different ways. And she will be like, I’m just on the way of working on the jaw right now. I’m just doing that with all of my students, hey, so I would get the knowledge and get the knowledge and get the knowledge and I would have no time to process. And eventually I, I had to just not come for a lesson for a while, like, Okay, thank you five weeks at home, then come back. So that’s when I realized that I started taking notes with my students. And I started like, remembering, we did that. And that worked. So we’re gonna continue with that. And, you know, you describe this, when it worked. You describe it as this, I’m going to remind you, that’s really like staying on point. So I learned that just a combination of my experience and experience with the students. And eventually, all those bits and pieces came a little bit together when I decided to make an online course. And so that really sort of like forced me to put it all on paper and like make make a plan. And I realized, oh, I have a method. Actually, it couldn’t be systematic, right?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  34:36

Yeah, a methodology. So what you described earlier, though, you said that as a student comes in something works for them. You work with them with that one thing because it works for them. So to me, that sounds like a very student focused approach to teaching so you’re working with the actual needs of that individual student So how does that then translate to a methodology? I’m assuming by what you’re saying that week one is this and Week two is that, and if all the students needs are different, are you still applying that same approach.

Linor Oren  35:16

So, I don’t really work with one time, like syllabus kind of thing. But I have the principles of practice. And I have my practice structure. And then there are all those things that you can do about improving your technique. And that where it’s customized. So in my, in my course, I have this huge module, when we go through the body parts one by one, and, and releasing tension or whatever we need to do with that part of the instrument. I tell the students, you don’t go through the whole thing. You don’t do that. You send me a video first. And then I tell you, you need to go to this and this and this. And that’s what you know.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  36:00

Okay, so it is customized, because the problem with a lot of methodologies is that every student is treated the same. But you do customize that, because so what you’re saying is, if something’s not broken, you’re not going to try and fix it. You leave it alone. Something’s worth well.

Linor Oren  36:19

Yeah, leave it alone.

Linor Oren  36:19

At least not at the moment. 

Linor Oren  36:20

At least not at the moment. And, do you know the concept of brights spots?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  36:27

No, what do you mean by that?

Linor Oren  36:29

Yeah, I didn’t make it up. There’s a book called switch when they talk about bright spots. And that’s basically something that already works. And instead of trying to solve a big problem, you take that one thing that works, and you duplicate it. So someone did that in Vietnam, they were expected to solve the malnutrition and kids in six months. So they were like, How can I do that in six months, and there is a sanitary, there’s a sanitary issue there, there is a poverty issue there. There’s so much stuff, you know, that takes way longer than six months to do. So what they did is they went over the old families, they weighed all the children, and the families that had children of proper weight, they asked them what they’re doing. And they found a pattern. Ah, so they weren’t giving them something specific, like a was potato greens to eat. And they were also splitting the meals into four meals instead of two per day, same amount of food. And they said, well, we don’t know if this is the thing, but we’re just going to do that with everybody. Because it works. And it worked. So innovated problems significantly, were amazing. I brightspot, if you have something that you can already use, just duplicate that, and then learn also what it is, but learn how it works. And then you have something that you can control, you have something that you can use whenever you want. And in a way, that’s also a waste of time to start tackling a big problem. If you have something that already works right now.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  38:12

Yes. So what is your teaching philosophy?

Linor Oren  38:16

So it’s difficult to summarize in one bottom line, but one of them is definitely don’t waste time, in sense. Don’t waste your life waiting to sing. So don’t waste your time beating yourself up, or judging yourself all of those things that cannot lead you anywhere that cannot teach you anything. And it’s very human to hang on to those things. Yeah, to self judgment, self criticism, and bashing. And disbelief, right? disbelief in yourself. And like, Oh, I’m bad. I’m realistic. I will never say Well, well, you will end up being 70 years old, and then doing it anyway. Because you love singing. So don’t waste your life. Just go for it. Yeah, thanks. So that will be my first my first thing. And the thing about the judgement, I will zoom in on that. And I will say you’re not in a position to judge your sound from your within your own head. It’s not the sound that is in reality. It’s not the sound that people hear. It’s a different sound acoustically. So don’t waste time on that. Yes, yeah. You want to go the mechanism, how you feel in the approach, how you’re doing the technique you have, you know, you have your one element that you focusing on? How did you do with that? So I work really focused on one thing at a time, and I work with what happened. How can we fix it? I work with numbers on a scale of one to 10. Now you give it a number. By the way, that’s the only stage in the work when I want people to be harsh with themselves and not like bad Southern Baptists give me a low number on a scale of one to 10. Because the 10 is better. So that’s one of my basic principles. And then the other principle that I work with closely is the body work. I don’t believe that you can sing well, while choking yourself at the same time, right? Especially muscle tension, and then closing the vocal cords. Because when you don’t close the vocal cords, you also have a form of pressure, just by default of air leaking out constantly. Yeah, so that might be like the fault of the of the classical singer. But on the other hand, I tell the students, there is nothing wrong with making an airy sound. But your vocal cords are not gonna like it. If you do it all the time? Probably not. Yes. And regardless, I want you to be able to choose if you want to do it or not. And when you’re doing it, and to what degree because there’s a spectrum, right, so you want to learn how to close your vocal cords. And you want to learn how to keep your instrument free. And for that you need to work with your body, you have to do bodywork or you don’t have a chance.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  41:10

If you have a student that comes to you, and everything appears on the outside to be working really well. So there’s no tension, the vocal folds are coming together, they’re working efficiently. But something’s wrong with that student, then do you believe that what is going on mentally and emotionally with that student will also impact on the voice?

Linor Oren  41:36

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And that’s why part of my course is also the mentality part. Both my courses by the way, the mentality aspect for me, it could, as you say, it could be a psychological thing, it could be something that we can’t go into in the lesson. But there is something very tactical that we can do about that. So, two things come to mind. First of all, what happens when you say, if you have what I call the three moments of hesitation, then that’s gonna kill whatever technique you want to do. Now, the first moment is just a split second before you start singing. So I want to sing something and I go, that’s before. That’s the plan. And some people would just think I’m just getting ready, right? Sometimes we breathe in like to get ready. And sometimes we just have this moment of thinking, and we don’t actually launch the sound. So that’s what I call the first moment of hesitation, and we have to kill that I have to get rid of it. And the second moment is actually can be multiple moments while you’re singing. There comes the judging. So was that okay, bad? No, it was not. And then you don’t actually do the thing. Because you’re busy slowing down, and you’re stopping yourself from doing the technique. Because you have those this hesitation. So I like to work with that vocal element in mind. Let’s just say it’s closing the vocal cords. Let’s say we’re working with speaking voice we like I like to do that we’re closing the vocal cords, right? Yeah. So we’re thinking speaking voice, you’re gonna think that in advance before you start, when it’s time to sing, go, go, go, go go. And then after that, there comes a third moment of hesitation. But instead of that moment, I’ll talk about that in a second. That’s where you can start asking question, how was it start evaluating and you can give yourself a number, scale it up, blah, blah, blah. So the third mode of visitation is when you go, that was not very good. This day. It’s not my day. Then you start bashing yourself, and then you start having hesitation for the long haul. Maybe I’m in the wrong profession. Maybe I’m not in a good you know, I’m not making good progress. All of this is a waste of time.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  44:03

Okay, I call that self talk. The negative self talk. 

Linor Oren  44:07

Yes, yes. 

Linor Oren  44:09

It does. It drove me insane too.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  44:09

That drives me insane. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  44:14

Yeah, and I like I even have students, and I try and knock it on the head as quickly as possible. You know how in the song there may be like four bars of music. They even find that four bars of music even long enough to go are That’s rubbish. Yeah, in the middle of a song. Like in between

Linor Oren  44:35

It can be less than that. Yeah, it can be after every a few notes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  44:40

That drives me insane. So that I have a rule. You’re not allowed to talk. No talking from when you started the song to the end of the song.

Linor Oren  44:50

Great. I love it.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  44:51

No talking. 

Linor Oren  44:53

Zip it! shot I’m saying. 

Linor Oren  44:55

Yeah.

Linor Oren  44:55

That’s one of my biggest struggles. It used to be my biggest struggle with myself and Now it’s my biggest struggle with my students because you really want to judge yourself. It’s, it’s an instinct. And people just really want to do that. And the thing that kills me about it is that it is no function of how good you actually say. I had a student who was 15 years old, a huge soulful voice you can cry from it was amazing. And she thought she was crap. Yeah. When she would have to have a phrase, she would literally fall to the ground, like, cover her hands with her head, just like, Oh, that was so bad. Oh, my God, I have to reverse engineer that. And it’s very difficult, especially with teenagers. Yes, but there’s no self, and everything is harsh. If you tell them oh, you looked a little bit nervous. That’s the worst. Like any shred of self doubt. It’s really hard. So yeah, all those moments of visitations I am getting rid of them with with tricks. Yeah. Because you can convince yourself that oh, you I am worth it, or I will have a career. But you’re not going to really believe it in the moment. Maybe. So you need to fake it till you make it. Which is another one of my mottos.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  46:17

Yeah. And what you don’t know you make up. That’s one of my-

Linor Oren  46:21

Exactly. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  46:22

Yeah, 

Linor Oren  46:23

Exactly. Yeah. So you need to do something about it right now. Then you will see the results, and then you’ll start believing it, when it works.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  46:32

Yeah. Yeah. I want to move along to the police here in the park. Oh, yeah. Now, you had this idea to go into a park, walk up to random, like people you did not know. And ask them questions about singing. So I’m going to let you tell the listeners the story about you in the park, the crazy woman chasing people around in the park.

Linor Oren  47:02

I have a nine month pregnant woman approach as well. Yeah, it was it was very, very far along. I think maybe that’s one of the reasons they agreed to talk to me. I was like, oh, probably she means no harm.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:16

Yeah, she’s not gonna kill us with a baby in there.

Linor Oren  47:20

Probably. So I want to make a story, talking to normal people about something that I saw was just a spread phenomenon in my life. And for some reason, more in the Netherlands than in any other place, but it’s just universal, when people say that they cannot see. And they hear that from other people. So we talked about that before. And I just wanted to know exactly how prevalent it was, because I just hear the stories that come to me. And I just went to the park and I asked people if they had memories of people telling them negative things about their singing. And the vast majority of people said, yes, very, very few of them said that they were encouraged to sing. And a lot of people said, yeah, they said that my siblings, my parents, my friends, my girlfriend, you know, they tell me that I that I can see. And then immediately they go on to. And yeah, I’m not a good singer. So the moment you say something like that to someone, they will believe you. And that will be who they are. I’m not a good singer. That’s just the way it is.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  48:28

Sorry, can I just say something that just came to mind, then? People won’t sing because they’ve been told that they’re a bad singer. Yet? How many people are on the roads driving a car and have been told they’re bad drivers? It’s okay to kill people with IQ. Ah, you’re not gonna sing? Like, yeah. When you when you put it into that when you talk about it in-

Linor Oren  48:59

If I like that, yeah

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:02

Yeah. I mean, how many people would use survey who have been told they’re bad drivers? How many people have been told? Yeah, I’m a bad driver. And yet they continue to drive but then they weren’t seeing, but they’re not gonna anybody with their singing,

Linor Oren  49:20

But maybe they’ll sing in the car. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:23

Yeah 

Linor Oren  49:24

Yeah. A lot of people sing in the car. A lot of people just sing only in the car. Because there’s nobody listening, right? But yeah, I absolutely. I’m gonna steal that because I like that little pep talk there.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:36

So you went up to these people? How many people roughly did you interview?

Linor Oren  49:42

I think it was about a couple of dozens, not hundreds.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:45

Yeah, yeah. Okay. And they’re all different age groups, different gender.

Linor Oren  49:51

Yeah, different age groups, different gender. And to my surprise, most of them said that they still sing they don’t mind that They’re bad singers, which is completely different than the people who come to me for lessons, because all of those are traumatized. Because they were told they were bad singers. And now they want to correct. Do some kind of therapy with that, and maybe find their voice somehow. But those people were like, Yeah, you know, I’m not good, but I’m still gonna sing. I don’t care. Yeah. It surprised me. Yeah, it surprised me. But then immediately, it made me ask out loud, why would those people do if they thought they were good? If they think so freely, and they enjoy their singing so much thinking that they’re bad? What would happen if they had encouragement? What could they have done with their voices? In my experience, by the way, if we want to talk about this, objectively, my experience with people who say that they can’t sing, they almost never cracked? Yeah, I mean, when they are correct, they only correct for now, but they can still work on it and improve. And eventually they can. I’ve never met a single person who couldn’t improve their voice. I’ve never met a single person who couldn’t correct the pitch. I’ve never met a single person couldn’t learn that. So that’s the objective truth from my studio in the past 20 years. I’m not saying that I’m a scientist, and I know everything yet. But I had some difficult cases in my, in my studio.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  51:28

Really? What’s an example of one?

Linor Oren  51:31

One of my favorite examples is someone who came with his girlfriend, it was so cute. They wanted to sing karaoke together. So that was their sort of like together activity to come for a singing lesson together. And she was she used to be a choir singer, she had a nice voice, she wasn’t musical. And we just had to work on the quality of her voice, which, you know, we always do. But he was like a ton of bricks. He was very, very rigid. He had very bad posture. And he didn’t have a single memory of himself singing not even as a kid. Wow. So no experiencing, and very, very limited instruments. So obviously, everything that came out of his mouth was out of tune. At the moment. Yeah. And very rough, raspy everything, like all the issues in the book, were there. And so why did and that’s usually what I do, by the way, when someone seems out of tune is ignored. I just ignored the fact that he was singing on a tune. I didn’t ask him to correct it. I didn’t tell him, you know, did you notice that this was around? No, no, nothing, none of that. We just worked on the body. And we worked on breathing. And we just I corrected the technique, basically. And we did this after a few lessons, he suddenly had a little bit of practice for his brain following the piano, because he’s never done that he’s never saying anything right? Let alone match, you know, with a piano. And lo and behold, a few after a few lessons, he could do it. Incredible. Yeah. It’s not like he was just a flip of a switch. And he never sang on a tune ever. But he started following the piano. And when there was a problem, it was usually a technical problem. Yeah, it’s either a technical problem when using the tool, or it’s an awareness problem. Yes. But both of those can be trained in my experience. And sometimes the awareness problem is at the level of vocal cords. Vocal cords don’t know that they can stretch this far. So just a little bit of sliding, you know, it’s gonna show them Oh, you just did that you just went to a high note. It was just not on a certain pitch. But your vocal cords can do it now. And then lo and behold, they can sing higher notes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  53:55

Yes. You said that you’ve never come across a singer can’t sing, or doesn’t improve. Have you ever had a student and I know I have. Who has come to you? They’re not the most talented singer. But in their mind, they are a brilliant singer. And they think they’re going to have a big career like and be the next Adele.

Linor Oren  54:24

I mean, I know what you mean. So some people just have that more naturally. Yes, they, they can do it more easily. They can sing into it more easily. They have a natural, like ring to the voice naturally. But because I thrive on solving those kinds of puzzles. I don’t really make that judgment in the beginning. I said okay, here is the issue. Now. Let’s see how we can fix it right out. Let’s see how we can yank the voice out of them. I have a student who really she really has big dreams for herself. And she wants to be a seller Every singer, and she’s not there yet, at all. But I’m not going to say she’s not talented. I actually think she has a good voice. She doesn’t know how to use it quite well yet. But she’s doing it better and better every day. She’s practicing every day. She’s doing what I tell her to do. She makes progress. What else do you want? Right? So I really think that I’m not the one who will say Here is my Crystal Globe, and this person is not going to be a famous singer. You don’t know that. That’s an you don’t know that. For now. Yeah. And that’s another form of wasted time for me. I’m going to tell them what I see. I’m going to tell them what they can work on. And if she comes in, tell me, do you think I’m ready for the voice? I’ll tell her what I think. I think you ready for this, and this, and this, maybe not for the voice. But if you really want to, you can go ahead and try, from what I know, they’re very quick to charge, they’re not going to analyze the voice, and they’re not going to be gentle, and they’re not going to be nice about it.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  56:07

No, that’s certainly true.

Linor Oren  56:10

That is not to say that you’re not going to be successful. And that is not to say that you’re not going to be a good singer.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  56:16

And the thing is having that open mind and having that beautiful attitude of just wanting the singer to blossom, and to be their best and to encourage them. They’re always going to improve that mentality that a lot of people have been trained in, that you go to the lesson and you get constant critique after critique after critique. And you get the wind knocked out of you every lesson. I don’t believe that’s the way to teach either. But a lot of us, not me, but a lot of specially my generation. Were taught that way.

Linor Oren  56:54

Yeah, I had I had teachers who were that way. Yeah. And I think if I want to give them credit, what is behind it is, well, the industry is so difficult, that they need to you know, they need to be very resilient, and they need to not be discouraged if you if you’ve seen whiplash the movie, it’s about a teacher who is an angel. He’s screaming at his students. And he’s just trying to discourage them on purpose to see if they stick around. And eventually, the one of his students sort of like rebelled against him and showed him. Yeah, I’m not afraid of you. But then he also proved him, right. Yeah, if you really are meant to be a musician, you will not get discouraged. That’s yeah, that’s a very, like all or nothing approach. Yeah, there are many things that you can do with your voice. There are many types of career, there are many ways for you to actually make a living with your voice. It doesn’t have to be Beyonce, you don’t have to be Atlas color, or at West End. There are many ways that you can do this. And not everybody is meant to be screamed at and still, you know, come out the other end and be a superstar, except that you miss all of this joy. And you miss all of this opportunity. And you miss on the Personality Growth that comes with learning how to say, Yeah, I 100% agree. And I’ll tell you even more, I’ll tell you something more. Even if someone ends up not singing well, in the standards, some people will call them a bad singer. That is not to say they will not become successful singers because we know just at the top of our hands of a few examples of people who are professional singers, but they don’t think very well. The conviction comes first.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  58:46

Yes. Now you have a YouTube channel. And I went to did a little bit of stalking today. I was telling you before we started this interview, it’s called a classical. It’s an opera singers reaction to, listening to Freddie Mercury for the first time.

Linor Oren  59:06

Yeah, not for the first time, but just reacting to Freddie Mercury.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  59:10

And it goes for 15 minutes. And it’s you’re literally listening to him in live concert, singing somebody to love. And your idea behind this video was to stop and give your opinion and look at ways I think you’re looking at ways to maybe to help or to say or, you know, if he hadn’t done this, this might have been a bit more helpful, blah, blah, blah. And I found it really funny and not being disrespectful and we did have a laugh about this. But after 15 minutes, you basically go well, I couldn’t find anything wrong with it. I don’t know if I’m even gonna bother uploading this video because it’s a waste of time. I mean, he’s actually really good. Yes. So Thanks for the memories you uploaded anyway, and it’s had nearly 4 million views.

Linor Oren  1:00:12

Yeah, it’s crazy. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:00:13

It’s crazy! 

Linor Oren  1:00:14

So, it’s crazy.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:00:16

I mean, I was sitting there waiting for you to say something more than what you were saying. I could see you. At times, I saw the opera singer going, like a little bit of a dance.

Linor Oren  1:00:31

Yeah. And no, it just, it hits me right here that that was one of the best performances of Queen that I’ve ever seen. And yeah, I sort of had that, like you say, I had that idea in my mind that if I see anything that is going wrong, I would point it out. And if I see something good, then I would point that out. And I think

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:00:52

You did. Yeah, very-because I want the audience

Linor Oren  1:00:54

because I want the audienceto sort of like pick up on those things when they see a singer. And they see, oh, that scene so well, that they could say Oh, but they’re doing this kind of technique. And that probably helps the voice that way. So that’s what I wanted to sort of like share in this reaction. And it turned out that what people really care about is the actual reaction, to actually see my face and see my emotions when I was watching him. And just getting the the vocal remarks is a bonus along the way. But that’s not what people care about. I have a lot of fans who are not, you know, really interested in voice training in any way. But really like seeing reactions. Like it’s a thing, though. It’s a human thing. human connection.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:01:43

So you have a number of these videos now. And they they’re like hundreds of 1000s of downloads, or view. 

Linor Oren  1:01:51

Yeah, it depends on, it depends on who I react to. But they vary from a few 1000 to a few millions. That depends on the popularity, I guess, some of the singer,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:02:04

where did this idea come from?

Linor Oren  1:02:07

It really came from the geeky place, because I’m analyzing singers all the time in my head. And I’m trying to pick up on what they’re doing that is good. And sometimes I do that in in lessons as well, like, I want to, I want to see, I want to show a student how good it is when you have a good posture, or how how beneficial it is. When you open the jaw like people think they open the job. They’re not really doing. Yeah, so no, this is how a normal singer is opening the jaw look. So at least that and it looks normal. So don’t think that it does that it looks weird or something. So that became from that just showing on a celebrity what they’re doing well, and just to show from the technical aspect, because I’m really fascinated by those things, myself. And then I went and watched Bohemian Rhapsody on the cinema. And I’ve had that idea of doing a reaction video for a while of doing exactly that. And I tend to sit on my ideas for months on end and not do anything about them. And then my husband bless his heart, just sat me down one day, took the cameras like okay, we’re gonna react to something right now. What’s it gonna be? And I said, Okay, well, let’s let’s do the Live Aid concert from from the movie because I heard about it. And I heard that he was sick on that day, I heard all kinds of gamers. Yeah, I wanted to see if I could pick up on it. I was interested in seeing like one of the biggest shows the greatest shows in history. How was that really like, vocally for Friday? So we did that. And that went viral. And then the video after that if somebody loved when, even above, above that.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:03:56

So when you did these videos, did you think other people are going to watch them? What mean? What did it surprise you that it went viral?

Linor Oren  1:04:07

It did surprise me. I did not expect it to go viral. I thought that it will help me probably with with my portfolio with my website, and maybe like slowly it will also get some views. Back then I only had a few of my seen videos, which are very old. And that’s basically all I had on my channel and they had a few 100 views you know from people that I sent it to. And auditions–

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:04:33

Mon, Dad Dad Dad Dad Dad. 5000 views was dad, he’s making up for all those 20 years.

Linor Oren  1:04:44

Yes. I have fun. Yeah. And the anecdote about it if you have time, but yeah, yes. Yeah. So my first solo ever in my college years. I didn’t invite my parents because it was just one line when I was singing solo. And it was sort of like a student project, whatever. And I didn’t want to invite them. I didn’t feel ready. And it was just like, you know, it was in a different city. I just didn’t invite anyone. But I did record it. So I went back, and I let my dad listen to the recording. And I knew in advance exactly how he’s going to react every step of the way. And that’s exactly what happened. So it was really funny. At first, it was the intro of the orchestra. So he listens for three seconds. And it’s like, I think this is the wrong track. You’re not singing here. Wait a moment. It’s company. And then after I think 45 seconds, I start singing. Oh, here you are. Oh, you sound like an angel. You sound like on a CD. Oh, it sounds like radio. Oh, it’s so beautiful. I predicted exactly that. Yeah. Oh, so so good. So good. Wow. Yeah. And then after 30 seconds, I finished singing and there is another soloist? Oh, that’s not you anymore. Okay. I don’t care. Yeah.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:06:04

Well, to be fair, I would have done the same thing if it was my daughter. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we’re going to wrap this up. It’s been such a pleasure talking with you. There’s, we’ve had loads your some fun stories there too. And very fun. So what are you up to now? What? What’s your next door? Is there another YouTube video being uploaded soon?

Linor Oren  1:06:34

Yeah, so actually, I can’t believe I’m saying this now. Because that now means that I have to do it. Okay. So I thought, you know, a little bit of healthy peer pressure from you and other voice teachers out there, that I wanted to have a podcast as well. So that’s my next project. And I decided that I’m going to make it a sing along podcast.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:07:02

Oh, fun!

Linor Oren  1:07:04

Yeah, so sometimes I will guide you know, sort of like a karaoke session. And sometimes I will just sing myself and I want to sing. Hopefully every single episode, I will think something. And when I have a guest over, I will invite them if they want to sing a duet with me.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:07:24

So, it’s like car, the car karaoke, but this is podcast karaoke.

Linor Oren  1:07:30

Good one! Podcast karaoke, I like it. You get percentage.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:07:38

Yeah, I was gonna say that’s two ideas I’ve given you now. I bought my Commission’s I charge. About the driver. People tell you about Oh, yeah. Okay. 

Linor Oren  1:07:52

The driver one is gonna have your name all over it. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:07:54

Oh yeah?

Linor Oren  1:07:56

Absolutely. I’m not gonna mention-

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:07:59

What’s the biggest piece of advice you would give to someone. And I know what you’re going to say here. Who has been told that they can’t sing. They’re a bad singer, but they want to sing?

Linor Oren  1:08:13

I would say ask yourself, first of all, one important question, whose life is it? I wasn’t expand answer. It’s your life. That was a rhetorical question. And then the next question is, what’s more important my life? Or what other people might think? Because you’d be surprised. Some people were told that they can’t sing. But some people were told it one time, and then they don’t know what the other people think. And then they just don’t sing because they don’t want the neighbors to hear them. I was there. I was afraid to sing because I didn’t want the neighbors to hear. I didn’t want my family to hear. Yeah. What’s more important? You, or hypothetical opinions? Yes. And I’ll go further and say that, if in the very unlikely case that everybody thinks you’re terrible, you still love singing, what’s gonna happen is that you’re going to waste your time. And then you’re going to wake up when you’re 60 or 70. And then you’re going to find a voice teacher, because I have that happen to me on a weekly basis. People tell me that they are 4050 6070. And they have waited all that while without doing it. So if you’re going to do it eventually might as well just do it now. Because value that there is in singing is about much so much more than just about the singing. Absolutely. It’s you your voice is you and that’s why we take it so hard. By the way. Our voice is our body as our being is our expression. It’s inside of us. There is no nothing more intimate than that. Why it’s so scary. But that’s also why it’s not going to go away, you’re not going to get rid of it. Yes. So just please do yourself a favor, and go and sing. And if you are struggling, and I’ve been there, if you’re struggling with that fear that people will hear you fake it till you make it, go through that little painful period when you are uncomfortable, maybe turn off the light, I used to do that I used to turn off the light in my room and close the door and pretend like a child that I’m the only one there. Because I knew that I had to get used to that feeling of people hearing, it’s gonna pay off. You’ve got to be more and more comfortable with it. And you’re going to feel the benefits of it. And this is for you. And if you’re not going to do it now you’re going to do it later. So might as well do it now.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:10:52

Yeah, beautiful answer. Okay, Linor, you have been so kind and so generous with your time and all your knowledge and your wisdom. We really appreciate you. We’re going to appreciate to Oh, thank you. We’re going to share your links in the show notes so people can go and have a look at your YouTube videos. And I recommend that people go and do that. It is a lot of fun as well. And yeah, and all your resources. And look, we wish you the very best for 2022 Have a fabulous year in the damn back action. And we’ll look forward to hearing the karaoke podcast and I’ve already got my song picked. No pressure, no pressure for having me on. Yeah.

Linor Oren  1:11:47

No, I want to know what-I want to know which one it is.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:11:50

No, I’m not telling-No Not telling. See. You’re being your dad and I’m being you now we’re role playing. 

Linor Oren  1:11:57

Tell me. Tell me. Tell me. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:11:58

No, no, no! 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:12:03

Thank you so much. Take care, Linor. Okay, bye

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:12:11

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of a voice and beyond. I hope you enjoyed it as now is an important time for you to invest in your own self care, personal growth and education. Use every day as an opportunity to learn and to grow so you can show up feeling empowered and ready to live your best life. If you know someone who will also be inspired by this episode, please be sure to copy and paste the link and share it with them. Or share it on social media and use the hashtag a voice and beyond. I promise you I am committed to bringing you more inspiration and conversations just like this one every week. And if you would like to help me please rate and review this podcast and cheer me on by clicking the subscribe button on Apple podcast right now. I would also love to know what it is that you most enjoyed about this episode and what was your biggest takeaway? Please take care and I look forward to your company next time on the next episode of A Voice and Beyond.