#128. How Voice Science Meets Practice with Dr. Brian Gill – Part I

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Episode Transcription

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  00:00

Hi it’s Marissa Lee here, and I’m so excited to be sharing today’s interview round episode with you. In these episodes, our brilliant lineup of guests will include healthcare practitioners, voice educators, and other professionals who will share their stories, knowledge and experiences within their specialized fields to empower you to live your best life. Whether you’re a member of the voice, community, or beyond your voice is your unique gift. It’s time now to share your gift with others develop a positive mindset and become the best and most authentic version of yourself to create greater impact. Ultimately, you can take charge, it’s time for you to live your best life. It’s time now for a voice and beyond. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  01:15

This week on a voice and beyond, I’m thrilled to be speaking with Dr. Brian Gill. This is part one of a two part interview with Brian who is a world renowned educator, singer, voice researcher and founder of Gil mindful voice training. At present, Brian is serving as a professor of voice and voice pedagogy at the Indiana University Jacobs School of Music. In today’s show, Brian takes us on a journey throughout his 35 year performance career as a singer and bass player performing across multi genres which included classical hard rock, heavy metal, funk, country, musical theater, Indian classical, and jazz. He explains how he managed to successfully transition across this landscape of music styles, and how that experience has given him a depth of understanding of the vocal parameters required to teach singers to be stylistically authentic across genres. Also, Brian believes that as voice teachers we must have engaged with any style we are going to teach, and that in order to learn a style, one must be immersed in that music for a significant amount of time. Brian has dedicated his life to demystifying voice, and tells us that one of the greatest misconceptions about the voice is regarding the notion of support. Brian also opens up about his mentors, His proud teaching moments, and so much more. This is such an engaging interview with Brian Gill. And remember, this is part one of my interview with Brian. And next week in part two, we are going in depth in our discussion around all things pedagogy. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  03:48

Welcome to a voice and beyond. We have Brian Gill. Welcome, Brian.

Brian Gill  03:55

Thank you. Great to be here.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  03:57

I am so excited about having you on the show. You are one of my favorite humans. And I have to tell you why.

Brian Gill  04:07

Oh, please. Thank you that what a lovely compliment.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  04:11

Well, because you have such a great sense of humor. You’re almost an Ozzy we met. It was either 2017 or 2018. In Australia, and you laughed at all my jokes.

Brian Gill  04:29

I know what a compliment, first of all to be almost an Aussie. I love that. Yeah, but no, I love the sense of humor, your sense of humor, and it’s Yeah, I think it’s we’re kindred spirits there.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  04:41

Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, Brian, I have so many things that I want to talk to you about. And I’ve been looking forward to this. There’s things in our conversations today that I’ve not spoken to other people about because they’re big topics. But I feel with you because we kind of had this lovely friendship. I feel like I’m in a safe space asking you these questions. So I’d like to start off with introducing you. You’re a world renowned educator, a singer, voice researcher, and founder of Guild mindful voice training. You have a DMA and certificate invoke ology, and in 2011, you were the Vand L. Lawrence fellowship winner. Congratulations. That’s a big win. At present, you are a professor of voice and voice pedagogy at the Indiana University Jacobs School of Music. Well, that I know, aside from that amazing sense of humor and the big heart that you have, you are an absolute geek.

Brian Gill  06:04

I said this before, yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  06:06

you are a geek. And I’ve done a little stalk on you. And I see that you had a big performance career, which was really surprising. You sang across genres, including opera, classical, hard rock, heavy metal, country, classical, like musical theater, Indian, classical, and jazz. You performed as a bass player and a singer for approximately 35 years. So you had a huge performance career. And you featured in some huge bands. One of them was Doobie Brothers, wasn’t it? The Moody brother moody brothers sorry, a Doobie Brothers moody brothers. Well, we got brothers, right.

Brian Gill  06:52

That’s right. And got the brothers in there.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  06:55

Yeah. What was your first gig? Do you remember?

Brian Gill  07:00

Yeah, I think yeah, the first gig I ever did was back. I think it was 15, 14 or 15. And it was, it was a oh my gosh, it was in a band called sanctuary, which was like a heavy metal kind of, like Black Sabbath almost tribute band. Wow. I love it. Yeah. And we started it. It was an outside concert in this park. And yeah, that was the first thing and I was addicted from the start. I was like, I know, I need to do this in my life. So

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  07:34

okay, so you started off in that band? And then did you go and have voice training from there? Or had you already been having vocal lessons?

Brian Gill  07:46

You know, it started there. I did. Everything kind of came out of just having listened a lot and mimic, you know, mimicking people. And I think that that worked well for me. And I made some good choices, especially within heavy metal. A lot of the vocal icons that I followed were like Rob Hallford, and Bruce Dickinson and Jeff Tate. And so just listening to the way they screamed, I would mimic it and it ended up being quite sustainable, and felt easy. And it wasn’t until college that I pursued voice like voice study. Several years after starting.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  08:23

Yeah, that sounds like me, because I actually had that career as well from the age of 15. And I learned by mimicking and I was listening to people like Tina Turner, Shirley Bassey, all those big belty voices. And I was able to make those sounds really easily and sustainably by just figuring it out. Intuitively. Only differences. I never had classical training. But you went on to have classical training, didn’t you?

Brian Gill  08:53

I did, yeah, I went in. Well, it was an odd thing. Because I went in, we wanted to keep our band together. At that time, it was power powerhouse. And we it was with my two brothers. And we decided that we would to appease my parents, we would go to an undergrad degree at a local university. And just you know, see, see how things went. And we would keep you know, doing any kind of gigging we could with the band. And when I went in there, I thought, well, I’m going to major in music clearly. And I thought, Well, it’d be easiest to major in bass, so I don’t have to worry about singing because I was singing heavy metal and you know, hard rock. So that doesn’t fit into the, you know, the curriculum at school, which is opera. And so I thought I’ll just do bass, but then they told me I had to play in the orchestra. And I was a I was a you know, heavy metal and funk at the time as well bass player and that’s the electric bass. I had no idea how to play with a with a bow. And so I asked them, I said, Hey, you know, I’ve been playing for years now and I don’t want to look bad. So Was there anything I could do instead of being an orchestra? In order to get my chops up? First, I wanted to be able to play with the bow before I went into orchestra. And they said, Sure, we’ll let you do choir for a semester. No. Yes. So I was like, alright, so I got in choir, and I ended up sitting next to a voice majors guy named Donnie. And I remember after we got done with the first rehearsal, he looked at me said, Dude, you’re loud.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  10:29

I have to share something with you right there. I was never allowed in quiet because I was too loud,

Brian Gill  10:37

you loud. I think that’s probably what he was insinuating. But he went on to say, hey, we’re looking for people for opera workshop. And he said, You should come by and see my voice teacher. So he introduced me to his voice teacher. And, and I sang for her. And she said, I’ll get you a scholarship. I’ll get you a scholarship. And and that’ll be it. And so I thought, really, so as we’re just kind of staying in just to keep the band together, it will be free, my parents will be thrilled. And she did. She got me a scholarship. And I agreed to study classical singing.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  11:13

How was that experience for you transitioning from those heavy metal sounds to classical? Was that hard?

Brian Gill  11:22

It was totally bizarre. Very foreign, you know. And in retrospect, I realized in some respects, not not to, not to speak ill of anyone, but I think in some respects, that they’ve had a lot of maybe a little pushing and a little over expanding kind of, oh, you know, a little more swallow than I think ultimately, one should be, but it got me started. So I’m very thankful because it got me started. And it fostered my love for opera, and facilitated a lot of things. But you know, hindsight is 2020 Yes. So there was a little bit of a conflict, because the heavy metal and the other stuff came very naturally to me and felt like an extension of my speaking voice. Yeah. Where, whereas this ended up not feeling that way. Um, I still enjoyed it. And it still came pretty easily to me. So I want some dance competitions and Charlotte music club. It was back in the back in Charlotte, North Carolina. And you know, so it was good. But definitely strange.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  12:26

Yeah, well, I actually had classical training for the first time last year, as part of someone’s research, their doctoral research, as a ccm singer, who’s had a long standing career, never had any classical training, and what impact that would have on my voice in terms of range, sustainability. Resonance, so I was hooked up. And we did all this pre and testing afterwards. And I, it was such a bizarre experience. I was really grateful for the experience. But as you said, it was bizarre because half the lesson was spent trying to get my larynx down in into and you know, so it was like, getting that lowering the larynx. And then breath work, like the amount of breath was almost passing out from the amount of breath. And then they interviewed me after the I had done my series of lessons. And there had been some improvement. However, my argument was, because I hadn’t had voice training for a long time, how could they prove that it was the classical training that made the difference? And if I had have gone to a ccm teacher, would I maybe not have had the same benefits as that? So anyway, that’s an aside, but I know it is bizarre as a ccm person, heavily entrenched in that music to have classical training. It’s like a different beast.

Brian Gill  14:20

Yeah, it’s a different beast. And I also think that there is such a high degree of variability in within classical training. I know now, like the things that I initially learned, and even through dozens of other teachers, I don’t teach anything like they teach. I mean, you don’t realize that I think that there’s certain things that have taken taken root within classical that are dis advantageous and aren’t really far truly following the the C canta como si parla like one things as one speaks, right? It doesn’t really follow that and you so you hear the threads within opera. kind of heading down this? I would say less immediate path less sustainable path in a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah. So I think I think that’s worth pointing out that that classical training, it could mean a lot of things. Absolutely. We experienced. Yeah,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  15:19

absolutely. And it depends on the teacher and the training that they’ve had. Because clearly that master apprentice model seems to still be rearing its its head within the classical traditions. What was the biggest obstacle though you as someone who had been performing those styles, and then having the classical training? What was the biggest obstacle you had to overcome? Or what was the biggest difficulty for you as a singer?

Brian Gill  15:50

Yeah, well, one was the schedule. Opera opera ends at 11. So I ended up I kind of took off pretty quickly and got some nice secondary roles at Opera Carolina early on in my late teens and early 20s. And so that would finish at 11 o’clock. And then I would go do a gig, go do a hard rock, funk rock or heavy metal gig until 3am, somewhere else, and then have to get up then and you know, and do the schooling thing, and then also go to a lesson after having had four hours sleep or whatever. Yeah, yeah. So that was in the beginning, that was really hard. Just the schedule alone, they kind of clashed. One was a very late night thing, and the other was not. And then I think the other the other switching back and forth, because I believe that one, like when I finally found my mentor that I still claim as my main mentor, Barbara Dahshur. Once she got, she got deeply involved in detail with me, I finally said to myself, Oh, it’s just like my speaking voice. I distinctly remember that transition. I thought, that’s what she got me down. And it sounded classical. sounded very distinctly classical. But it was much more closely related to the other things I did. Genre wise, clearly there were different things happening. But sation wise, it was much closer to my speaking voice. And so, so I think that was the biggest challenge was getting past the things that weren’t truly helpful.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  17:22

As a female, that wouldn’t work. Because you’re in a different, correct, just start, because we’re, we’re, I’m not a terminology snob. So I’m just gonna say head voice and chest voice for the sake of most people, I think they still use that terminology. But, you know, as CCM singers, we’re primarily in our chest voice. And to then have to go into that head voice and stay in that sound. No matter how low you go, that was really hard for me.

Brian Gill  17:59

Right? Yeah, right to bring that lower. I mean, I still think you carry the idea that if you’re in head voice, and you’re still close to speech, you’re doing the right thing. Whereas if you have voice, and then you go, Oh, that’s very far from speech, that I would say that that that carryover Is is possible to say, interesting, very different than speech because it is head voice, but there’s an immediacy and a pronunciation of vowels that can happen even with the thinner edge of the vocal folds less less contact.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  18:33

Wow. Yeah, that’s so interesting. Then how did you come to teaching? Was it something that you plan to do? Or was it something that happened serendipitously?

Brian Gill  18:45

It’s something a guy had really, I didn’t think about it too much. But as I was gigging out, the first requests I had were for bass law that, you know, a lot of people weren’t a lot of people have, especially at that age, you know, around 15 1415 1617, you know, they were all into an instrument or their other drums or guitar or bass. And so I had a lot of requests for teaching bass because I’d be playing out and they would say, I want to learn what you what you do. And I started teaching, and I loved it. Absolutely loved it. I was so passionate about it. And I kept thinking, man, as my students were getting better, and then ultimately, I’d start to see my students out on stage. I just that was the biggest thrill of my life. I mean, almost, to me almost a bit more than me being out on stage. I totally get it. It was like, I taught them how to do that. And so then that carried very naturally into voice teaching. After I was studying classical for a year, people started asking me for voice lessons within that realm.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  19:47

Yeah, it’s really unusual in our community, for us to come from that performance background first, and then go into teaching and academia. out. Usually people go into academia and study and then go off and do what they need to do. Yeah. But I feel that it’s a real advantage having had that experience of being at that roots level of being on the stage and having that performance Korea, do you feel that that was an advantage to you? And if so, how do you? Does that still impact on your teaching now?

Brian Gill  20:30

Yeah, I think it was a huge advantage, because you know, what you’re dealing with, you know, the nerve factor, you know, the reliability factor, you know, the kind of worries that people encounter, will this happen? Or what are the distractions with sound system, particularly in I mean, actually sound period? Because within operates, like, how do I hear myself? And what kind of monitor system do they have for the orchestra? How much can you hear the orchestra? Right? It’s such an interesting thing to get used to. And then within contemporary, what is it like working with microphones? And what are the opening band and the people who are running this, you know, the sound system, you know, you they don’t really know your band, as well. And so you might not get the things that you want? Or as clear a monitor mix? And how does that affect your voice? So I think knowing the ins and outs of it’s really helpful, because then then you’re, you know, what you need to dive into with your students. And you can kind of warn them ahead of time, you know, as you’re going through this voice balancing, you can also inform them on the performance aspect of it.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  21:36

Yes. Because the performance to it’s knowing what audiences are going to want to listen to, right. And what makes a good performer. It’s not just making a good singer, but I know with my students, it’s about well, people will want to come and hear you. Because you have these qualities, it’s not just being a good thing that you’ve got to be able to perform. And you’ve got to have that authenticity and that honesty on stage and it’s creating that whole package. And you if you haven’t been on a stage yourself, it’s really hard to explain that or know what those things are.

Brian Gill  22:16

Yeah, I was gonna see right and how do you feel space? How do you entertain, even between the songs that you’re doing? Like how do you hold an audience that way? And, and I feel like that that also carries over into giving masterclasses I just you know, I was just over in Sweden, and we did a course you know Johan Sunberg, Philippe Alana and others. And myself and we as we did it, I did several master classes. And one of the things that was funny somebody came up to me and they said, not only did you do a two hour masterclass, but you entertained us? Yes, I thought, right. It’s how do you how do you draw people into it? It’s as a performer or also as a performer or masterclass, quote, unquote, you know, you need to find ways to engage an audience. And so yeah, that comes from

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:04

so true, because I anything where I’ve got a stand up in front of people, I think of it as a performance, whether it’s a masterclass whether it’s a workshop, whether it’s a presentation, for me, it is a

Brian Gill  23:20

performance. Yes, absolutely. 100%.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:24

And you can’t get the performer out of view. I was a performer for nearly 40 years. So it’s hard for me not to perform.

Brian Gill  23:33

That’s right. It’s automatic, just turns on,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:35

it just turns on. Where you want to be funny, and you want to make it entertaining for someone. So they’re not sitting there going, Oh, okay. Well, that’s good. For you having performed across all those styles, then, and having sung on stage and having such an in depth knowledge of those styles? How does that impact your teaching? So not just the performer and the gig and the venue? But actually, having made those sounds yourself? Do you think that’s a big advantage to you as a teacher?

Brian Gill  24:18

Yeah, huge advantage. So then when you’re working, you know, you understand the genre, you understand the language of the genre. So not only are you going for a coordination, but the person also trust that you’re heading towards the aesthetic that they’re supposed to deliver. And they know that you know it, because you’ve done it. And so I think that that’s, that’s really important. And I think in order to be responsible, I guess would be the word that I knew, you know, that you should have, I think someone should have engaged with that style that they’re going to teach. Now. I will say that I have been asked since I do have a broad range of styles that I’ve engaged in, I had been asked by people Well, would you teach me, and this is what I saying, and I’ll tell them right up front. I’ve never sung that. So I can tell you that I’m not an expert in that area. I, I do understand voice though. So if you want to play around, and we figure out how certain aspects of voice as an instrument, figure into the style you’re doing, I’m willing to do that. But I just want to let you know that I don’t bring in expertise in a B, or C bike, Indian classical singing, I learned from students of mine, one very, in particular, in the details of that, what they’re drawing upon the tuning differences, the inflections what’s expected, right. And so that’s just keeping an open mind. But I said, upfront, this is not my expertise, I can help you balance your voice, I can help you do all those things. But it will require more conversation, in order to see how it integrates into the style.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  25:55

Is there a style you won’t teach?

Brian Gill  25:57

Now, not without the caveat that I just said, I’ll teach anything, as long as they understand that I’m going to come at it from a we need to commune we need to draw, I’m going to be dependent on you. So their styles, I’d be hesitant to teach because it’s not. It’s not my expertise. You know, I’ve played reggae bass a lot. But I’ve not sung a tremendous amount in that style, or things like that. But if, if a reggae singer came to me and said, Hey, my voice is in trouble. Can you help me out? Also? Absolutely. I said that you said the genre solely dependent on, you know, on your input for whether you feel like it’s authentic or not.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  26:38

Yes, I totally get that. I won’t. I’m like that I would never teach a classical singer, because I’m definitely not an expert. In classical training, other than those few lessons that I had, it is not my jam. I don’t understand how to make those sounds authentically. I mean, I can mimic those sounds, but whether they sound authentic or not, is another thing. And the other thing I won’t teach is jazz. I mean, I’ll work with the voice. But I won’t work with a style. Because coming from a pop and rocks background I’ve seen on one. Yeah, don’t move me from one. Right. So therefore, as teachers, I know, there’s a lot of teachers out there who say the opposite their classically trained teachers, who teach CCM and a lot of them actually don’t like the music that I’ve heard that I’ve heard that from these people. And I’m not calling them out. I’m just saying. So what about then?

Brian Gill  27:48

Can we do it? Just one by one? Let’s just list them. No, I’m just kidding.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  27:54

See, the humor people? That was Brian Gill Auntie humor moment. That sarcastic wit that is Australian? Oh my gosh, how long did that take? That was like half an hour into the interview didn’t take long. So what I was going to say is I would refer out. So if someone comes to me, and I don’t understand something, because I really don’t feel comfortable. I don’t have an empathy for that style. Should we be referring out? Or is it okay to say, alright, you know what, yeah, I’ll teach you.

Brian Gill  28:39

Yeah, I think I think referring out is a strong thing to do. You know. And again, I do think we have to have a solid base of people that we trust, that we can refer out to, you know, like, there’s, there’s certain things like within ornamentation, like within classical music that I will always refer out. I’ll say, man, it’s your voice together. But if you want to get some stylistically correct ornaments, that is not my jam, you know, I like it. I’ll invent some things. And sometimes I stumble upon some great ornaments. But in general, I’d rather someone who has studied ornamentation of the different eras to jump in for me, you know, I think, yeah, I think we need to learn to outsource those things. Yes. So yeah, I agree with you. 100%. There. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  29:23

So have you had classical students come to you and want training in CCM? Yes. And how hard is it been for them?

Brian Gill  29:34

Well, I think the first thing that I run into is they’re doing it because they want to expand their potential gig opportunities. Yeah. And I get that and there’s, there’s a whole group of people we can name them as well, just kidding. That that are making a bit of a living off of pretending like they can teach people a particular style. And I would emphasize A person learns a style from, from being immersed in a style. Just like you learn a language. By being immersed in the language, you will, you will know the ins and outs of the language because you’ve been, you know, if you’re in France until Hyperledger Arkhipov francais, you’re surrounded by people who speak French.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  30:18

That was really good.

Brian Gill  30:20

Thank you very much. I lived there for a couple of years. I love it. But you have to be immersed in it. So I first thing I do is like, if you’re an opera singer, and you don’t like rock, then if you need want to learn to sing rock, you need to have a very steady diet of listening to rock and roll. And same thing with gospel. Same thing with any style, you’ve got to be immersed in it for a significant amount of hours. And yes, you know, in order to be able to live in it, you learn the language that way. Otherwise, you you come across as for lack of a better word, opposer you know, someone who’s just not an effect? Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  30:55

they I say that my career started at five, because that’s when I started listening to the music. At five years old, I immersed myself in the music, and I loved that music. And I continue to immerse myself in that music every Friday night. My husband and I, we call it Friday night dance party. We put on Spotify, and we choose a playlist, it could be 80s Rock, it could be 70s, r&b, it could be hits of the latest pop hits. Yeah, we I continue to listen to that music. And I think that’s the only way that we continue to be good teachers in a particular style, or across styles is to continue not only have listened, and being judged on that music in the past, but continued to evolve. And, and I think we always pick up something different that we

Brian Gill  31:56

didn’t hear before. Yes, inflections, and yeah, absolutely. And then staying current to like listening to whatever style you’re into what is the latest output within that style, whether it’s opera rock, or pop or gospel or, you know, whatever. And it’s See how it’s evolving. So that folks come to you within that genre, but they’re really influenced by newer artists, not the older artists, you can recommend older artists that they should be exposed to. But then also you should know this, this new, this new stuff. And so yeah, I think it’s so important. My oldest brother, Kevin, he’s a guitar player and, you know, performs regularly, but then also teaches, and I always remember every time I go and as a bass player, I used to do it as well. He would know, he knows all the latest things, because he’s teaching it. So he’s quite current on the literature. And so you stay fluent in like the new almost like the new evolution of the language.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  32:51

Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Brian Gill  32:53

Oh, yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  32:54

And there’s something else that I’m seeing within the voice community, and I’m seeing this more in the US. And we’re not naming names. Brian, I’m sorry. No name names. My show or you could get me fired. I’m sorry. Okay. But people mix up for want of a better use of words. What is CCM and what is music theater? Because a lot of the stuff that they think is CCM is would not be popular or commercial from a ccm music market standpoint. There’s a big difference between the sounds in music theater to the sounds in, say, today’s music markets. And I’ve, I’ve heard that too, where I’ve heard people put their students forward and say, Okay, we’re going to do a master class in this. And then when I listen to it, I think no one would pay to listen to that. From a commercial aspect.

Brian Gill  34:12

Yeah. See an authentic? It’s yeah, right.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  34:15

Yeah, the students I seem to find the hardest to deal with and to get them to become more authentic in those styles in those CCM styles, our music theater students, more so than classical students.

Brian Gill  34:31

Yeah. Great. Read. It’s very common there. But I would say I would say that there there are more classical spokes now. And again, it’s largely due to availability of gigs, and they’re all wanting to cross over into music theater, at least. And then second would be some pop interest in pop as well. But music theater is a huge draw, just because the sheer number of opportunities Shoulder. But I agree that it is more common for music theater folks to want to do pop.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  35:06

Yes. So, in wrapping up about your teaching career, what has been your proudest teacher moment? Wow. Is there one or a couple you want to share with us? He can have a brag here.

Brian Gill  35:22

Well, that will the I mean, the most recent just because I’m going to New York tomorrow to see her in Light in the Piazza. But as when my student Ruthie and Myles, longtime student now won a Tony. In, in King and I. Yeah, I mean that that was it. And she very, very sweetly thanked me on live television. And I’ll never forget that I did not expect it. I was jumping up and down and screaming for her and so happy for all the hard work that she had put in and to see it realized like that. And then she thanked me as her mentor and teacher. And I just I was like, did she, I read I got all these attacks from everybody that I heard your name. And so that’s probably one of my favorite moments. I mean, there’s so many with all of my students Grammy nominated and all these different things. But it’s that one really stands out because she and I are super tight. We’re like family, and we’ve been together for a long time. And so yeah, that’s a real standout Ruthie and Myles, I would be

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  36:29

so proud. I mean, that’s incredible. a Tony Award. Well, congratulations.

Brian Gill  36:36

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that was a thrill.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  36:39

So what we’re going to transition a little bit now and go into the science, the geeky side of Brian Gill. So we’re going to let God the bass player who sings heavy metal. So you’ve dedicated your life to demystifying the voice. Yeah. So what do you believe is the greatest myth that we have about the voice?

Brian Gill  37:04

Let’s the greatest myth? Well, I think I think one of the things that sits out there all the time, and I understand why people use it, but it’s, it’s the concept of support. Oh. So I’ll just dive in there. People use it all the time. And I have yet to find anyone who could possibly define what it is based on what we know, and anatomy, physiology and acoustics of the voice and voice function. I understand. And so I’ve taken a deep dive into the research behind it. And I’ve really, I’ve concluded there was a fantastic study that showed that there seems to be no difference between what people consider supported sound, and what is also considered good singing voice quality. So people assume that a person is quote, unquote, supporting a sound, if there’s good singing voice quality, but the issue is, what are they doing with their body? And the answer is when you dig into it, and you measure it, like the folks like terraza, and ethanol, and that group looked at it, people do different things with their body for different vocal functions, like pitch jumps, or Ducati or whatever it is, they’re doing something different with their body. So the idea that one that support is one thing I think, is one of the biggest myth in in singing voice.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  38:37

So where does that come from?

Brian Gill  38:39

I round? That’s a very good question. Right? It’s it’s the, it sort of stems from even the same idea sing with your diaphragm. Oh, you know, I kind of concept right, which is just as big general thing that you could see what people mean by that is take a deep breath. So the diaphragm goes down, right? Or have the diaphragm go down. So you take into deep breath, that’d be a better way of thinking actually,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  39:05

yeah, or a body mapping problem.

Brian Gill  39:08

Yeah, or a body mapping problem, right. And so I’m sure that’s what it stems from. But but it gets so much more complicated then. And then that that figures also into the concept of support. And when we have an invisible instrument, you know, all of this stuff is inside until now, though, they’re now there now, x rays of a person breathing and showing what’s happening. And this is horrifying, because I have a video that lasts for quite a long time of a person being x rayed, and you see exactly what the diaphragm does or does not do, based on the way their ribcage moves, or their abdomen moves, or doesn’t move. So it’s fascinating. But before all that happened, we had no you know, no sort of inside view. And so people just invent things. then. So that’s what you say we’ll do something you’re when I sing, I feel my body activate. Absolutely right. So then you could say, well, my body activates and it’s supporting quote unquote, my my voice, I get that. But what is it doing? Is the activation a staying expanded or allowing the abdomen to come in? Or is the ribcage saying extended or coming in. And nowadays, we have more ways to measure all of those things and to also see them. So I think we need to say goodbye to big general terms that were necessary. Before we knew these details and get into some more specifics about how the ribcage is operating, operating, how the abdomen is operating, how the vocal folds themselves are operating between different styles, how the resonance is operating. We know a lot more specifics now. And I think we need to jump away from those big ballpark terms.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  40:55

Two questions around that. Firstly, do you think people use the word support more for the sake of the student so that they the student then knows they have to be doing something, whatever that thing is, that they can’t just stand there and sing that they actually have to physically be doing something? To to aid the voice? And when you talk about the confusion between good singing and supported singing? Is that different? per student? Or does do the same principles apply? What are we all different, like someone who’s employing good singing? And then they stand next to someone else? Who’s also, you know, doing some good singing? Can they be doing different things? And it’s still good singing?

Brian Gill  41:53

So yeah, so yeah, so first question, I think you hit the nail on the head, I do think it is something that a teacher would say to be if someone were just kind of delivering a song without any energy. Yeah, dive in with a supportive Deus to like, what to do something. Stand on your head. Do anything, because right now, it’s coming across as pretty bland. It is

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  42:23

like, you know, you’re almost flatlining here people.

Brian Gill  42:31

Listening? Yeah. So I do think I think that’s an aspect of it, right? Like, get in the game, please. But you could replace that with us more breath, use more breath flow, or stay expanded, or, you know, what, I changed the shape of the resonance. Right, you could change that and insert something more proactive. Direct side. Yeah. So I think that that’s an aspect, that would be important. And then the other thing is, absolutely, that people could be doing good singing voice quality, and neck side by side and be doing completely different things with body and it’d be based on body shape, muscle tone, muscle coordination, you know, the size of their vocal folds thickness, how connected they are, how, you know, all these different things. So they could be doing wildly different things. And still both be rated as having support, or a good good singing voice quality. Yeah.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  43:28

Now you’ve studied with Dr. Endo to say, and Dr. Johann Sundberg. In his summer course, the science of the singing voice. And now you’re a co instructor in that program. And you teach all around the world. And you’ve been doing that for the last 10 years, who’s had the greatest impact in the way that you’ve formulated your ideas around? Voice Voice Science, acoustics, all that kind of thing?

Brian Gill  43:57

Yes. Well, I think it started with Barbara dosher. She was so well into how science meets practice. So she was doing her best to marry those two things when I was together with her. And so I truly, that was my springboard into the science side of it looking for explanations. And she was a great example because she did not pretend to know what she didn’t know. She was incredibly curious. And she knew more I mean to this day, she’s the best practitioner I’ve ever witnessed. I just it still was this magical thing especially you know, towards the end she passed away right at the end of my master’s degree unfortunately, and I was gonna go on and study my with my doctorate with her already signed up and ready to go, but she passed away that summer but but she was fully present with the person and with thinking about what do we know and you know from voicing ions, and how can we integrate that into this person singing in order to inform the communication, it was always about that, if you were nuts and bolts with her, and then you stayed there, she’d be like, don’t ever sing that song again, unless you’re going to commit to the text. Like she would, she would turn all the sudden and say, all this stuff we’ve been doing, it’s to serve communication, not just you know, so I love that about her. So but that’s what got me started the curiosity and the open mindedness about it. And and not feeling like you had to conclude something so definitively that there’s no room for any other input. I love that about her. And then, you know, the next one was in good pizza, and his knowledge of Voice Science is unbelievable. And he was such a great teacher and I was in 2000, that I first met him and took his vocal ology course, and that that that really solidified that I needed to spend my life joining these things joining the worlds of performance with what we know and Voice Science. So that really got me started. And then not too long after that, I met Yan Sundberg. And in addition to him being one of the greatest minds of the world and Voice Science, he is also one of the most generous human beings with theirs. He’s like, indefatigable, he just will spend time with curious souls. And to quote him, he likes being around people who are looking for the truth and tends to avoid those who have found it. I just think it’s great. And so he and I then have now over our now it’s like 14 years have become very close friends. To the point we’re family. And so that has allowed me to be able to take deep dive after deep dive after deep dive with him, and talk through these things, and bad at back and forth. Here’s what I do in training. He respects me as a trainer. And he says, well, we can’t really say A, B, and C, because that doesn’t make sense with you know, these things that we’ve learned. But what is it? And he actually this time, I gave a masterclass for this, this this Swedish course, last week, and he came up to me, he said, you know, certain things that that I say haven’t really been proven yet. And he said, but the problem is, they work so darn well. So yeah, so I think he’s, I would say he’s been a long standing friend and CO and spiritual notes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:34

I think so I’ve seen the pair of view together.

Brian Gill  47:38

He also has a great sense of humor.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:42

You know, you know, when we’re in Philly, just not so long ago, all of us. Yeah. And we had that night out. That was great. You know, can I tell you? I was looking around the table. There was you? There was yo Han? There was some other women there? I’m not sure who they were. And Philip. Ah, Stan. Yes. And Jamie Labette tree. And we were sitting around having dinner and a laugh and doing it. We did a real for my social which by the way went viral. Remember that? We had to do like a Mexican wave without glasses. Yo, ha, of course, he had to mock it up and be the odd one out. But I just was in that moment where I thought I can’t believe I’m sitting here with these people. And what big hearts these people have what amazing human beings and amazing minds that I’m surrounded by. It was one of the most humbling and yet most gratifying moments in my life. sitting there having dinner with you guys.

Brian Gill  49:10

You’d have I felt the same way. That’s the way I feel. It’s with generous people. Right? You just it’s hard to believe that they can be so talented. Right? I mean, it’s it was such a wonderful group to be with. So yeah, I loved I love being there with you. And that whole group. That was awesome.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:26

It was fun. Now I have to back back. Maybe an hour prior to that dinner. There was a very intense meeting going on at the foundation symposium in one of the meeting rooms and I have a photo of the faces and the expressions on the faces. So it was very intense. And there was Johan, in Go. stayin yourself, I don’t know who else was there

Brian Gill  49:59

on Share. Right Yeah, Filipe Allah. Lau sia Salama, I believe was there. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  50:06

Okay. Yeah, it was really intense. I want to know, what were you guys talking?

Brian Gill  50:17

We were trying to figure out where to go to dinner.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  50:22

You were not in guy was there? He didn’t come? I’m kidding. Well, you ended up at my hotel for dinner.

Brian Gill  50:32

Thanks to your great suggestion. That was an awesome suggestion. No, we were. So we had presented Johan Philippe and I had presented some information that basically contradicts a bit of what Ingo Tita has been talking about with nonlinear source filter interaction. And we’re on a quest to see it, right not to prove that it’s not there. But to see it, how do you see it? And so using inverse filtering, we were looking at it. And we saw one example out of seven of the subjects that we studied, where you could say that, that it looks like it’s there. So that’s not a lot. And so the question is out there, do you? Is it something that you take advantage of, or is it something you avoid, and of course, there’s positive nonlinear sorts, in theory, there’s positive and negative interaction. So after we presented that, I saw Ingo talking very seriously to Ron. And I thought, I bet this is about that topic. So I went back and I listened. And it was, so I sat down being being the I like to know see, nosy, and I like to commune I like to get to the bottom of things, and I respect and go so much and different. And Ron, it was, you know, so I thought, let me go join in and Ingo saw Assam. And he said, Brian, I need to talk to you about the research you guys did, I was like, great. That’s why I came over. So he started talking to me about some of the issues that he had with it, and, and going into detail. So we began the conversation. And then I thought, well, it’s only fair to have Johan Sundberg, come join us. And so I called him over. And then he sat down. And we had this very matter of fact discussion about ways of looking at this phenomenon, and then way ways to move forward. And so Ingo had some suggestions, and Johan I mean, I’m just I was kind of sitting listening, and then also pushing pushing the the issue a bit more like the the way that nonlinear source filter interaction is looked at using the model synthesizer and using the transfer function of the vocal tract and, and thinking about it linearly. You would think if you looked at it that way, you would see some anomalies, you would see something that would indicate, hey, this particular way will not will not allow, it will not work in defining voice because the here these outliers, and what we found is using the theories that Johan uses, it seems to define boys pretty well. So So anyway, so we were we were aren’t, you know, not arguing but but discussing intensely about worth Yeah, it was intense. It was an intense, but also beautiful conversation. And I told I talked to Ingo a couple of days later, before he was leaving. And you know, he said, which was I was so it was so heartening to hear this. He said, I really like your group, you Ingo and Filipa. And I said, Well, we’re dependent on you to push us and he said I’ll push. Yes, that’s great. And you know, in the spirit of of pushing things forward, so I’m going to be in touch with him also to like, say, how else do we need to look at this and, and find some real solid ways forward. So we can continue to demystify voice?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  53:52

Can I tell you, I have no idea what you’re talking about when you’re talking about this nonlinear, whatever it is

Brian Gill  53:59

source filter interaction? Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  54:01

Okay. So what are you talking about?

Brian Gill  54:05

It’s yeah, it’s incredibly complicated. It’s in big part terms, it would be that one way you could look at it is there’s an effect, that the vocal tract has a feedback mechanism that feeds back to the vocal folds, and will either help or hinder their vibration. Oh, you look a look at it as a feedback. So from from a practitioner, I get that and I sense that and I think that that’s very reasonable. When I look at the measurements that Johan has done, it’s almost as if you’re trying to avoid especially avoid the negative impact from the vocal tract that I’m sure have to you’re trying to avoid that. But then the positive impact like like the idea that Ingo says you could put a sine wave a simple sine wave So just a compression faction, you could put a sine wave through the vocal tract. And it could then become a more full spectrum without anything from here that it’s that it’s, it’s what’s going on inside the vocal tract that could produce a more full spectrum with more harmonics in it.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  55:17

So knowing about that, is that going to benefit the teacher or the singer?

Brian Gill  55:24

Both, I think both because if you if you knew what to look for in terms of shaping more specific shaping of the vocal tract, you could get to the bottom of something quicker, like you could say, close your mouth here. If you’re wanting this sound, you want to be more narrow. If you want this on, you want to be more open. And if we knew more about that feedback, then you can you can prescribe more specifically what to do in any given situation. Okay, yeah, so a huge benefit for the teacher to get to the problem faster, and for the student to get a faster result.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  56:01

Wow. Okay, so, in moving forward, I do have so many questions for you around what is evidence based? What is science based around acoustics? So, we will continue to talk about more of this in a part two of this interview you okay with that, Brian?

Brian Gill  56:26

Absolutely. I can’t wait. Awesome. Okay,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  56:29

so we’re gonna wrap this part of it up, but this is on hold. Because we have only started to scratch the scratch. I truly wanting to take a deep dive into all this stuff.

Brian Gill  56:42

Great. I can’t wait. I’m so thrilled to be chat chatting with you. And I can’t wait to chat again.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  56:48

Likewise. Okay, we’re going to continue on. So stay tuned, folks.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  56:56

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of a voice and beyond. I hope you enjoyed it, as now is an important time for you to invest in your own self care, personal growth, and education. Use every day as an opportunity to learn and to grow, so you can show up feeling empowered and ready to live your best life. If you know someone who will also be inspired by this episode, please be sure to copy and paste the link and share it with them. Or share it on social media and use the hashtag a voice and beyond. I promise you I am committed to bringing you more inspiration and conversations just like this one every week. And if you’d like to help me, please rate and review this podcast and cheer me on by clicking the subscribe button on Apple podcast right now. I would also love to know what it is that you most enjoyed about this episode and what was your biggest takeaway? Please take care and I look forward to your company next time on the next episode of a voice and beyond.