#47. The Balancing Act between Academia and an Authentic Soulful Performance with Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin

Episode Transcription

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  00:10

Hi it’s Marissa Lee here, and I’m so excited to be sharing today’s interview round episode with you. In these episodes, our brilliant lineup of guests will include healthcare practitioners, voice educators, and other professionals who will share their stories, knowledge and experiences within their specialised fields to empower you to live your best life. Whether you’re a member of the voice, community, or beyond your voice is your unique gift. It’s time now to share your gift with others develop a positive mindset and become the best and most authentic version of yourself to create greater impact. Ultimately, you can take charge, it’s time for you to live your best life. It’s time now for a voice and beyond. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode.  Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin is a world class performer, voice researcher, author and educator who has travelled and taught students from all over the world, as well as lectured nationally and internationally on numerous topics relating to singing voice, pedagogy, and vocal style. In this episode, Trini speaks candidly about the struggles she endured in higher education, where she discovered that there was a disconnect between academic singing and the singing that she grew up with within her church community. tourney’s explains the more time she spent trying to sound academically correct, the more authentically incorrect her singing became. This motivated her to study voice on a deeper level, and she completed her doctoral studies seeking to understand the cultural aesthetics and components of a vocal performance in gospel music. Based on her research trainees created sole ingredients, her trademarked teaching methodology, which focuses on student centred learning and encourages personal freedom across the African American base styles such as jazz, gospel, r&b, blues and other pop styles. On today’s show, true nice also shares her views on why educational institutions still endorse a one size fits all Eurocentric training model, the responsibilities of representing the black community in the singing voice community and much much more. You do not want to miss today’s episode with Dr. Trent nice Robinson Martin. So without further ado, let’s go to today’s episode Welcome to a boy sent beyond Trineice Robinson-Martin, it is such a pleasure having you on the show. How are you?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  03:34

Thank you so much for inviting me. I am just Well, thank you.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  03:39

So it is late at night there. You’ve done a gig you’ve done a showcase and you still so graciously agreed to come on the show. And I did say if you fall asleep I can’t even like dong you on the head haha no worries at all. No worries at all. I’m you give me energy and I’ll give it right back to you. I know that. I know. I think you’re about the only person I know that can talk more than what I can.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  04:09

I tell people all the time you my sister in vocal pedagogy. Come on.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  04:13

I know right. Now, the last 12 months have been really bittersweet for you. You have achieved some remarkable things. Finally your album has been released. That was in August, you’re back to gigging but you’ve also been through some family loss as well. How are you going?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  04:35

You know, I think I’m grateful. And the processes that I’ve been through in terms of life in terms of my own health, you know, after I got the vaccine, I got sick. I was one of the unlucky ones that got real sick and then my stepfather passed and so it was like a lot of things that were just happening. But then you know, my album came out it was well received and then I started a new position at Rock Nation School of Music and it was like a lot of new with a lot of overwhelming opportunities that it’s really challenged my ability to say no. And that’s been the hardest thing that has been trying to manage the new workload trying to catch up because I was down for so long. And so it’s been a very, it’s been a very interesting year. But as the song says, my good days outweigh my bad days. So I will not complain.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  05:35

You don’t complain, you don’t complain. And you’ve always got such a wonderful positive attitude, you are a shining light amongst our voice community. Surely, now you are as for those people who don’t know who you are, I’m sure they must have been living under a rock if they don’t, within our community. You are an acclaimed performer, you are a recording artist. You’re a voice researcher, and educator, you are an author, and you’re a presenter, and that’s where we first met, it was at eye CBT. In Brisbane. I don’t even remember how many years ago that was? Oh, my God, I think by now, it was probably about eight years, but I think that was 2013. Mm hmm. I feel like 2013 was the year. So it’s been a while. It’s been a while. Yeah, yeah. And I accidentally was in your workshop that you were giving it the time was on gospel singing. And just a quick story. I happen to be there, because I was volunteering. So my husband and I, in that moment in time, we’d lost everything. So I couldn’t afford to go to icbt Even though it was in my own city, I couldn’t afford to go. And Irene Bartlett, our dear friend said to me, Marissa, why don’t you come along and volunteer? And then you don’t, it won’t cost you anything. And that’s how I came to be at icbt. I mean, look how our changed so much since then. Yeah, so I literally couldn’t afford to go. So I ended up being there. And I was assigned your room. And thank goodness that was meant to be, I was totally captivated. And I thought, This is what music and singing is all about, especially and I’m not being disrespectful. But in a lot of the rooms, there were our classical friends. And it was just so refreshing to be in a room where there was joy and the real joy of singing. So thank you. And since then we’ve crossed paths a number of times. And we’ll get to some of those, you know, we’ve had the pleasure of actually working on something together, we’ve had a collaboration. But let’s go back and do a little bit of a background check on Trineice and your story. So where did you grow up? What is your background?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  08:21

I’m originally from Oakland, California, in here in the US, just all the way on the other side of the country from where I am now in New Jersey. I have two sisters. So three girls, I’m a daughter of a legacy of clarity of people that are in the church. My father is a pastor, my grandfather actually on both sides, next to my grandfather on one side, and then my great grandfather, all that lineage to my dad’s side. They’re all church. And then on my mother’s side, my great grandfather was also a pastor. So, you know, church was big in our family. Also, my mother’s father was big into music, more jazz. And that’s where I really got into jazz. Yes, he’s introduced me in to just the idea of giving me a ella fitzgerald CD and like learn how high the moon, you know, before then I didn’t really consider myself a singer. Before then I was, you know, singing was just a part of what we did. I mean, it was church, everybody saying like, dancing, you don’t think in the family choir? Of course you do. You know, so I didn’t really think of myself as a singer. Until really, when my grandfather my maternal grandfather gave me a CD and was like, Hey, why don’t you try to do look at this? Ella Fitzgerald and then I when I got into high school, I was already playing piano. So when I started singing my everybody was like, wait a minute, you say first thing that a church. So you know, it’s quite interesting, how life just creates you know its own legacy for its own purpose and divine reasoning. Because when I graduated from highschool, I certainly was not planning on being a musician, I was going to be an engineer. So I went to school for engineering. And I ended up changing my major, probably my junior here or the end of my sophomore year, beginning of the junior year, after having internships and singing just, you know, a little bit. And people there were like, Why are you majoring in music? Like why are you not presenting this? So, you know, you’re I am.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  10:24

So why weren’t you pursuing it? I mean, you develop that love of music, thankfully, to your grandfather, by the sounds of things, introducing you to that music that you really resonated with and really inspired you to sing. Why did you not think, to take up music as media?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  10:43

I think, first of all, I am a first generation college student. I mean, I had a couple of cousins that graduated from Berkeley, my parents had gone to college, but they didn’t graduate. So there was a little bit more about me just wanting to make sure that I was gonna be successful. Me not saying being a professional music as a viable occupation. I mean, I didn’t really have any models. I everyone that I knew within the music was obviously in charge musicians. And, you know, they all had day jobs. So it to me, it didn’t seem like a viable profession to make a living. And my high school teacher was like, Whatever you do, do not major in music. You know, one of those and I mean, I’m from Oakland public school district. So it wasn’t like that was a risk at the time, that was something that you would just take, because it wasn’t until my mom actually was like, you know, don’t listen to what other people are saying, you create your own path, you get to decide what’s successful and what’s not. And you get to decide, this is what you want to do. So that gave me the encouragement to just keep studying, then, you know, go for this profession and really understand that there’s so much more involved in the profession of a musician and an educator and a clinician, like, I didn’t know all the things that I’m doing now. There was no model for this, you know, I didn’t know that exists. I didn’t even know Voice Science existed before I graduated. Nobody know that I said, If I would have known that this was a field I probably wouldn’t went from because I was doing chemical engineering because I was big in science and math, I probably would have went into Voice Science had I known it existed it.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  12:29

I totally get everything that you’re saying. Because in my family, no one had a university education. My parents came from an island of Sicily. And my mum’s went to grade two, which is like she went to school for two years out of a whole life. My father went to school for about three years, none that they were totally uneducated. And music was not an option either. But I don’t know. Like, here we are, this is important. So I want to break down when you were doing your master’s degree, you studied music, education and jazz studies, I read somewhere that that was a bit of a confusing time for you, because you started to find that you’re a different person in those lessons as to the person that was singing in church. So do you want to share that experience with

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  13:29

us? Yeah, so because, as you know, most of the vocal pedagogy is led by classical singers. You know, when I got to Indiana University, for my master’s degree, my first master’s degree, it was a jazz studies. And at that time, there was no vocal jazz programme at Indiana University Bloomington, there is now and there were all classical teachers. And one very, very brave teacher, Marianne Hart, who’s still there, said, I will teach her she was recital this year, her big area was art song. And she said, let me be the one that teaches her because I’m literally there would have been no one else there. And so she started introducing me to, you know, the concepts of real vocal technique in the sense of, and I say, vocal technique in terms of just having a strategy, you know, understanding of a balanced instrument. And the interesting part about it is that because she was teaching from a classical standpoint, there were certain things about vocal function that I started to relate to classical music instead of fundamental things that I need from my voice. So for example, if she was trying to get me to develop head voice, because my chest voice was obviously much stronger than my head voice. Yeah. If the model for the head voice was only around it focused sound. Then at the end of the day, I would have this like headphones was only this one sound. So I’d be like, ah, All right. It was like, you know, it just didn’t work, which is why it was like, oh, okay, well, I guess this is something only I do in the studio in this studio, but not anything that I’ll ever use because it doesn’t sound right. Yes, yes, we put, it just didn’t sound. It didn’t sound culturally viable. It didn’t sound like it belonged. So I would avoid it. And then this would never really develop it at the level that I probably would have had I understood the context had I understood the things about the voice. And as a result, because I had this kind of like, Alright, I know, this is not quite it. I don’t know what it is, yes. Let me figure out what it is because there’s obviously people that are doing this for a living. And there are obviously people that are doing this for a really long time without damaging themselves from being able to maintain their careers as appropriately as the next person. So that led me on this journey to really figure out okay, well, what is voice pedagogy for soul music for black music in particularly, you know, when I started my my doctorate research, I was trying to do pedagogy of soul, which I teach a lot on pedagogy of soul now, but that was going to be my dissertation, instead of the gospel pedagogy. I narrow it to gospel. Because when you’re in graduate school, the first thing you have to do is narrow your scope. And I narrowed it down to gospel, because I recognise how important and how influential gospel music was, to the black musical sound, if you will, to put it loosely, you know, the legacies that have evolved from times of slavery and slave songs, and spirituals into r&b and soul and hip hop, and jazz and blues and all of these different things and you start to it was, then I realised that, okay, if I’m gonna study this music, I might as well be not only because of culturally, what I grew up with, but I should really focus on the practices that a lot of the popular music side of it the secular music side of it had developed. Yes, you know, or mirrored, or shared. Yeah, everything I needed to know about black music was Columbian gospel. Yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  17:17

And when I did my PhD was in CCM, the training of CCM singers, there was a lot of information in your dissertation that was really practical and useful and aligned to the work that I was writing on the research that I was doing. It was one of the few papers out there at the time, that was any good to me.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  17:44

Well, I tell you that it was definitely, you know, when they say labour of love, it was a labour of my own, wanting to know, my own inquisitive mind of saying, Okay, I did that dissertation for me. It just so happened, everybody else wanted to know the information. But I promise you, I did not think that it was something that anyone else wanted to read or explore. Particularly I didn’t think that in academia, but it is so thorough, because yeah, it was really, really seeking answers. I wanted to understand, well, what is it that people are describing things as are? And how can I bring these worlds together? And I say that because even in my own community, meaning even in the Gospel community, or even in the r&b community, people couldn’t articulate what it is that they were hearing what it is that they they just like a wide note, you’re either right or you’re wrong. But they couldn’t really articulate the people that I was around, at least couldn’t articulate what it is that they were hearing that was more soulful. Or like if my dad, you know, my dad, or any of the clergy, people that we would go to, they’d say, Oh, when you really let the Lord will use you, you’re gonna be something. And they will make statements like that, which is quite vague. And I’m like, what does that mean? More? They’ll say something like when you really start thinking, how am I what am I doing? Because by then I had at least gotten a couple of degrees. But there was something that was missing. I’m like, why was it that when I went into church, I was still looked at as this trained singer, right? Like, not necessarily authentic, authentic, like, I wasn’t singing like my cousin sore. And then what was it that when I sang gospel, I mean, when I sang jazz, there was a black Usher here that gospel more than what was it that when I started to sing r&b, they will say, Man, you sound so jazzy. No one could figure it out. No one Yeah, articulate yet it is that they were hearing that was giving them that perception. So that was why I really, really dug in. And that’s why when you go to my clinics, I’m always like, Oh, well, this is what this is. And this is why this is this. Yes. Is where this comes from. Yes, it was because I was trying to find out for myself

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  19:54

yet. So a couple of questions there because that’s a lot. That’s actually a lot. So when you were singing in church, did you feel as that young person, you’re the most authentic to Tunis you could possibly be that was your most authentic sound? Did you feel that the academia started pulling that apart? Or was it one exploration that started pulling that apart where you didn’t fit in with a jazz cohort? You didn’t fit in with the gospel, you didn’t fit in with the classical? Like, he must have been going up? Where do I fit in here? Where’s my sense of belonging?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  20:35

Absolutely. And I also had that mental thing of wanting to be right. So I knew I sensed or I had absorbed through academic society that really singing hard was not healthy. Yes. Okay. So I knew I wasn’t supposed to do that, per se. So I was also trying to maintain a sense of vocal responsibility. Once I started singing, like singing for real, like being trained. The problem is that I, you know, looking back in retrospect, now, the problem with that is that I spent more time trying to be right, instead of being effective and efficient. That makes sense. Yeah, ministry.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  21:26

And I would say authentic too, because sometimes when you want to be right, you start to lose that authenticity. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because it becomes more about you being right than about what you’re supposed to be doing at the moment. So then you’re not made it wrong. Interesting to spin it around and go, Okay, this is what I was doing. And it sounded right. Like in that context of the church, it sounded right. But then all of a sudden, why did it start not being right, and what did you feel was wrong with it?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  22:00

Well, what was wrong with it is, is again, just as I was saying, what was wrong? What is that? I was concentrating on it being vocally Right? Which then means that I’m thinking about notes. About words, I’m thinking about flow, about, quote, unquote, placement, I’m thinking about, am I breathing low? Am I thinking about? Do I remember the words am I thinking about is this the right pitch, nothing to do with the song that I’m singing, nothing to do with the ministerial function that I have at the moment. I’m coming here to sing your song so that you can clap? Well, in the black church, both as the institution and Mr. And my family church, the ability to bring the congregation to a sense of collective joy, or, like the song wrote, is the point, right, it is the point to be able to move and to be able to minister to be able to have a conversation musically with not only the instrumentalists but also with the congregation, like as this collective expression. And that is the point. So being in my head and being in the technique and being in to the melody of the song and the words without ever stopping to think about what the words meant to my own testimony. That was everything wrong about what I was doing. So academically, right?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  23:25

Yes. And then what in all fairness, to that principle can be applied to singers across all styles. I mean, I always say, and it’s kind of like my standing joke. We’re pretty messed up as singers we are. So in our heads already. We are always listening for that note, is that right? As long as it here is that there, and we kind of start to lose the joy and the storytelling. And that is probably when we start to truly become imposters is when we do that. And not when you know what, it doesn’t matter if it’s not right. As long as the message is coming across, and I’m feeling it. It’s kind of a little bit messed up in our community to at time.  Well, I think about that a lot. And I think about why that is and I think about me all the way down to where we talk about classical music pedagogy, having that kind of overarching standard vocal pedagogy. Right? Well, people are very quick, whether that’s in classical music or not to say I was classically trained, you know, especially your CCM people is classically trained. Yes, right. Yes. You know, and there’s a lot of people that still believe that if you are trained classically per se, that you can sing anything and, and the thing that I find most compelling about this thought process when I’m breaking it down, and when I’m trying to look at it from their perspective, I’m thinking number one is the generic term for functional training classical, do these people really mean that if I apply the parameters that it requires to sing classically to rock, gospel, r&b, it’s going to be the same. That would be ridiculous to say. So however, I think that they’re thinking, Oh, this mindfulness of what am I doing with a lion is mindfulness of what my taking a breath, that’s not compromising what I’m doing? Those are those kinds of things. And it made me think of that, because his concept of when you’re looking and you’re training for parameters, what happens when the parameters of a particular style breed, more technical acquisition? You know, and I feel like classical music, a part of what makes it beautiful, is very highly measured within the technical acquisition. Yeah, the greater community, right? Yes. So if you have that mindset, of a part of what it is, is a part of what makes it beautiful and compelling, is your ability to miss a devotion is your ability to have business balanced vibrato, and have these lines that seem to you know, melt from from bow to bow? Like if that is what you perceive as the beauty to move into another cultural context where that doesn’t exist at that level? Or doesn’t exist at all? Mm hmm. Then you don’t even realise that you’re kind of pulling this person away. Yes. being culturally viable within the context that they’re singing? Yeah. And I mean, I do know what you mean. And in across CCM styles, and obviously, including gospel music, people can will forgive imperfections, as long as you’re being authentic. We don’t care if there are imperfections, we’d rather hear a bad note, and be able to see into the eyes and the soul of the person who’s singing, then have beauty of tone. And it’s so boring. It might be beautiful. But it’s so boring.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  27:17

Yeah, no, that’s absolutely true. You know, and I think that’s, with that said, that is one of the things that makes me really challenged what pedagogy is, for CCM, it really makes me challenge because the only models that we pad have been from an academic standpoint, from this classical mindset, right? These classical parameters of this Yes. Just doing formal training. Yes. So then it became okay, well, what is responsible training? What is functional training? If the parameters for excellence in, you know, these quantitative parameters of tone and all this kind of stuff? What happens? How do you train someone formally, and to be responsible for the instrument, but yet articulate their soul? That becomes another thing. And that’s what I’ve been spending with the last 10 years, really trying to evolve in trying to better articulate for not only myself and my students, but for the greater vocal pedagogy community, like, let’s start putting together what this means what kind of pedagogy does this mean? You know, how do we develop this type of expression? How do we develop our students to be able to freely share themselves in as you call authentic way, in an authentic manner, which is not a part of our natural society? Like we don’t we go around just freely being like, I love you, um, you know, unless you’re like, yes. I mean, you know, really, I you know, and then

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  28:52

it’s interesting. Yeah, I was just going to say, because this has been the kind of journey that I’ve been on the last 12 months is all of the things that you’re talking about. And my answer to that is, yes, we do need to teach our students you know, how to create a sustainable sound in a healthy manner, but also to we need to be able to as teachers, leave our absolute biases at the door, create safe spaces for our students, where they can feel vulnerable enough to be able to be who they are in that moment in time. And that it’s okay, that it’s not perfect. It’s okay. It’s okay to make a mistake. It’s okay. If you break down in tears because that you what you have just shared is so great, and it’s so deep and it’s so powerful that you can’t help but cry and then I sit there and cry as to And we shared that moment. That’s what I think we need to do.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  30:04

And that’s what I think that there’s, that’s something that we have to learn as well, just as emotional beings. The idea of not wanting to cry and not wanting to express yourself in this vulnerable place, being an inhibitor of sound, you know, I began to like, oh, I don’t want to get choked up, but not realising the flow. How, like, how do you cry and flow? How do you cry and release that energy and not hold it in all of these different things that I feel like it’s just not a part of our natural way of being? Or should I say it’s part of our natural way of being, but it’s not as part of our societal norm? Yes, havy. So I think a part of our contemporary pedagogy has to really start with allowing the students I think you’re saying this space to say you are wonderfully made here, I’ll say this, in all of my lectures, you are wonderfully made, all we are doing is music being Who You Are we dancing in the sound, you don’t you don’t stop that one bit to check your registration or your breathing when you’re trying to tell somebody off, or you’re telling somebody how they, you know, let’s see if we can put that natural being that genuine communication within song and in the context and make sure that we’re developing your voice and a way that you can sustain that musical behaviour, you can sustain that emotional intensity for longer than you would in a conversation.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  31:29

Two questions here, Trineice, when you were studying, and okay, actually, I have a million questions. I know. And, okay, so when you were at university, and you were studying, did you have that support? Did you have that teacher that allowed you to be who you were, and to emote? And to be authentic and to be vulnerable? And to be real? Or is this something now that you’re starting to think about as you become a teacher yourself?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  32:06

This is definitely something that I started once I became a teacher myself, because one of the things that because it’s not even so much that my teachers were saying to do to do this or not to do this, I think my own self, my own limitations to allow myself to be exposed to allow myself to be vulnerable, is what really started this whole path of like freedom of expression. I mean, I did have one mentor who one of my elder mentors was still still living, that once upon it, he was like, what the real trainees please stand up. Because he was noting that my personality and who I was offstage was not the same person, as I was, you know, the controlled yesterday. Yeah, I’m gonna sing this song, because it is popular. It was like this to different people on stage now. So now I have to be more refined, because I’m singing jazz, but then I get off stage and be like, all crazy and wild. Right? Yeah. So and this was actually during my doctorate work. I mean, you know, my doctor years, maybe I’m right after I graduated, that we were talking. And he was like, you know, you got to figure out, how do you become the same person? How do you maintain your, your sense of self. And I’ve kept that after this conversation. I’ve kept that and you see, which is why even in these academic settings, I’m still very much myself. I mean, you know, and it’s intentional. It took a while before I felt like that was okay. And having mentors that reinforced that another story. While I was in college, there was one professor that I talked to Laurie Cristero, she was one of the professors at Teachers College, and I remember saying, you know, I’m getting this doctorate, should I change the way I speak? You know, cuz I’m very casual, I’m very vernacular, should I you know, and most of the black academics have a very, very specific way of speaking. They’re extremely articulate. And I was wondering, Am I diminishing my position? And my education by not speaking at that level of these, you know, black elite, if you will. And I remember her saying to me, she said that I think is going to be more important that you just be you. And yes, you know, there be some people that not like that yet, but they probably won’t be for you. Anyway. I think that people that are going to be for you are gonna like you how you are? Yes, yeah, I kind of went with that. And I was like, okay, because it takes a whole lot of effort to be somebody else.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  34:48

It does, and it truly does. And, look, it’s something that I’ve struggled with also, what you’re saying I expect A great deal of my time feeling like an imposter, someone that hasn’t belonged. I never thought I smart. I never thought that, you know, I would listen to myself speak and I think oh my gosh, you don’t speak very well, you have to fix the way you speak. Yeah, you don’t dress like the usual academic or the, you know, university lecturer. I went through all that stuff. Yeah, also, and it all comes back to our self worth, don’t you think and how we value ourselves. It’s actually nobody else’s business but our own. And the pressure we put on ourselves. And it sounds like to me, you, that’s what was happening to you without probably even thinking about it. And part of that is imposter. And part of that is that sense of, Do I belong here? Right? Do I have what it takes to belong? 

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  35:58

I think that first generation, I think that’s the generation academic, where you don’t have these visual representations, where you don’t have these personal experiences of other people that are in the same field or the same models. It’s funny, because now that I’m at Rock nation School of Music, so this is a new programme that just started Yes, here at Long Island, university, Brooklyn. And a lot of the students, there are first generation, first generation college students, first generation musicians, a very large minority students, I mean, you know, in terms of the student body, and it’s interesting, because I see myself in my role and my position as that of a role model. Yes. I’ve always wanted to be that person that said, that can help redefine, what does it mean to have four degrees? What does it mean to teach that at Ivy League? What does it mean to be Ivy League grad? Do I get to rewrite what that is? And just say, Yes, I can laugh out loud, you know, I can say, hey, use all these colloquialisms. Yes, but still be quite articulate, you know, and still be encouraging to my students that come in and are failing music theory and ear training, because they’re now being put into the system and tested in this European system that is more notate and quantify when you’ve been going by errors all this time. Now, you have to remember what it was called, you know what I mean? Yeah, there’s two showpass.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  37:32

Sorry, when you said that, that reminds me of Elizabeth Blades. That’s one of her big sayings is this too shall pass that was used to say to her. Have you seen a change then, from when you first started studying in the university system in the higher education system to now? Or do you feel that we still have a long way to go in higher education in terms of accepting CCM styles, accepting minority groups accepting singers who have had little or no training but have amazing ability, but can’t read a note of music? Are we still in the same situation? We were in 10 years ago? Do you feel?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  38:25

Well, you know, that’s a good question. I’m going to say no, I’m saying we’re not where we can be. But we’re not we’re definitely not where we were. And I say that because there’s a lot more effort, I think, in teaching associations, and different associations academically or non academically, that are more invested in moving towards diverse education, moving towards diverse styles, moving towards just being a lot more open minded, like the conversation is there. Now granted, to try to integrate these changes within an old academic system is going to obviously take longer, yes, then it is going to be in the public market. I mean, in the in the private market, meaning you know, as a private teachers, more private teachers teaching CCM, right. And even when we have these degree programmes, their degree programme situated within a Eurocentric pedagogic context. So even though we’re opening up and we’re trying to be more diverse, it to really change and really impact the curriculum so that it is more culturally centred, which is going to be a little bit longer, farther away. But I do feel like it’s coming because there’s enough people that are thinking about it, and there’s enough people that are starting the conversation, saying hey, something is not right.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  39:55

Yes. When I was doing my, I think I would say my final year of writing my dissertation, and we met up in Sweden. We’re at IC VT in Sweden. And I remember being there and there was a lot more openness in your time in terms of CCM. And I just had this moment and I remember coming to you and I said Trineice look, you know, why is there such a problem with CCM in the States? And I said, I have a feeling I remember, like, it was like this moment. And I just said, I have a feeling that it’s because where the music has come from, it’s the roots of the music. And if that’s the case, I can’t believe it. Like, for me, it was such like, a moment where I just went, Well, I think this is I found the answer. And I was in shock. I mean, was I right at the time? Like, do you feel that I was on the right track?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  41:02

Yeah, it’s really funny, because I feel like we have always we Americans have always had this. I’m trying to choose my words carefully sure.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  41:12

I know you well enough to know that face.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  41:16

Yeah. That let me watch what I say and say this. Yes, yes. Before I make an overgeneralization, but I think we as Americans historically, have had such this love hate relationship with Europeanism. And I say it like that. Yeah. Because to be dignified. To be considered high class has always had a great relationship to Western European culture. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. Leave with European clothes. Yes, yes. Right. So, intellects that these academic institutions that are cherished, happened to be the Oxford’s, and these, all of these, you know, again, elite European institutions. As a result, I think that what’s considered high art. And again, a representation of this being dignified. And this elite status is heavily rooted within this elite European culture. And anything that is not of that culture is not worth scholarly recognition. Right. And I say it from that standpoint, because a lot of times, I would think about it as more of a racial aspect, which is a much more complex construct, then I think a lot of people from outside the US really understand I mean, people inside the US don’t even understand it, because it’s not taught as freely. But I start, the more that I get into critical race theory, the more I start to understand American history, and the more I start to understand race as a social structure, rather than ethnicity, and the history that goes along with that, I start to realise that, oh, a lot of this, like race is so complex, I don’t want to go into this whole thing, because,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  43:16

like, who we don’t need to know.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  43:19

Yeah. But what I started to realise is that it’s not just a black thing in terms of, oh, they’re not looking at Jazz and Blues and Gospel, because it’s a black thing. There’s some of that, too, but they’re also not looking at American folk, as substantial, you know, even if it’s by white people, per se, white people, it’s a closed social construct, mainly because it’s a poor thing more. So I’m not going to look at the music of the poor people. And I’m definitely not going to look at the music of the people that are poor and black. So certainly much more complex, because it’s like, oh, well, it’s not worthy of study that, you know, it’s not you have to study the music of the classical compelled posers. And if you want to be considered an intellectual, so it’s that culture that is so much deeper, you know, particularly in the US, it’s everywhere, but I think in other countries, there’s some exoticism seen when they’re looking at like, oh, the American music or black music, you know, that are like, wow, it’s this other thing. That’s exciting. And I want to know more about where as I don’t think you all have that same kind of look. It’s like, wow, what is this other thing, but it is, it’s still very complex. It is very growing. It’s developing, you know, particularly with the cultural reckonings that’s happening right now. It’s a growing topic of inclusivity. All these different things. So yeah, but yeah, no, it was absolutely right. You’re absolutely right, that all of the music’s that you would think that would be the biggest thing in the West American music is much bigger in everywhere.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  45:00

Yes. Well, I suppose it made absolutely no sense to me at the time when I was writing my and doing my research on CCM that those music styles accounted for 99% of music sales and streaming and downloads, and classical was 1%. And so if you were to put that on a graph, it’s like that CCM and this is classical. But then when you look at the university system, that’s classical, and this is CCM. So I was thinking, why aren’t they acknowledging this music? And in one sense, I was thinking, well, this is very irresponsible, because these students are not going to have jobs that they they train. Yeah.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  45:44

But again, when your definition of intellect is rooted in elite Europeanism, that it makes perfect sense. Yeah, it was not to create musicians, obviously. Because if it really was to create musicians that had jobs, then they would go with the market. Yeah. But it’s obviously appealing to this another mindset that as we are now in the position to kind of challenge these ideas or like, Hey, your idea of your pre NISM, or elite Europeanism is great, but can we make sure that these students that are taking out all these loans will have a means to pay them back? Yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  46:25

yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you feel as someone then who is the first generation college student to have a doctorate? Do you feel a responsibility to lead the way to pave the way for the black community in our industry? And you’ve already said that you are there to mentor the students in your new job in your new position? Do you feel that responsibility? And is there a moment and this is very, I wasn’t going to ask you this too, later on in the interview, but we’ve gone around in a different circle altogether. But that’s us. So is it about legacy for you as well, with your children included in that? 

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  47:11

Yeah, I mean, definitely, you know, it’s funny, because after I graduated, both my parents got their degrees, you know, really went back to school. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:20

Oh, yay, my sister name. They all had degrees now. Amazing. What did they study?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  47:27

So my mom did a business. And then my sisters, my siblings, they all did biology.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  47:32

That is amazing. You’ve created monsters.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  47:38

I mean, you know, it’s one of the things that I realised without realising it is that part of the impact is where other people see that, oh, it’s not as bad as I thought it was going to write. You know, my niece is literally it. She’s a scientist, she’s on her way to getting her doctorate as well. And I don’t know molecular science or something like she’s doing like stem research, whatever. I don’t know, I think super smart. And she’s absolutely brilliant. And you know, but it’s that thing is that it becomes the norm is that when one starts to do it, then it becomes the norm of this. It’s accessible. I know for myself, Yes. To answer your question. I put a lot of pressure on myself to make sure that what I’m saying, when I’m talking when I’m representing myself, when I’m representing my community, where if I am as we go to all of those conferences, yeah, no, I am one of those few if not the only person of colour at these conferences, right? Yes. So if I am the only voice, someone has the opportunity to hear that I want to make sure that I’m representing what I’m saying, with authority, I’ll do feel like I have a sense of responsibility to represent my culture to challenge the stereotypes that are perpetuated. So I mean, you know, we’ve worked together I am yes, they’re like, No, it has to say like this, it Yeah, I take it very, very, very seriously for that reason. Because if I’m going to be your only source until you get to know more stuff, I want to try to lead you in a way that’s going to feed you and not feed your misconceptions.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  49:22

Yes. When we were collaborating, Elizabeth Benson was leading the way in our collaboration. That was over a like a 12 month period from the first meeting that we had to when our paper was released, completed and it was on equity, inclusivity diversity and belonging in the boy studio. Like I saw a change in you from the first meeting to when we were in those final stages, and we were making those editorial changes. You had changed and I could see that But you were becoming more careful about the language, you will be wanting to articulate things in a way that you had never done before. I could see that in you. It was like, not only were you feeling that responsibility, but I feel that you were learning and growing more. 

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  50:20

Absolutely. I mean, just like you’re saying, it was more like recognising that I do have a responsibility. And acknowledging There’s a scripture that says to whom much is given, much is required. It was that moment in during that process where I was doing a lot of reading, I’m I’m still late, but I remember a lot of yeah, a lot of reading. And just because again, recognising if I’m always the only black person in the room, or if I’m always the only voice that someone’s going to hear, then I want to make sure that what I’m saying I’m representing and not over represented, right? And being careful Yes, to be like, Okay, do not over generalise this Yes, or let me not imply and all those things, it becomes a very delicate disposition, which I think my Caucasian colleagues don’t share the same degree, they share it when they’re talking about another cultural music, then they’re like, oh, wait, I don’t want to be offensive. You know, I don’t think my colleagues are that careful when they’re writing about the history of rock and roll. I mean, matter of fact, they’ll over and avoid the black influence in the blood. And without thinking twice about it, they have no problem. They say, Oh, this was the first like something, Buddy Holly, or, you know what I mean? They just go, yes. You know, they don’t have that same same responsibilities that I placed on myself.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  51:44

And it’s a lot. I mean, that’s a lot of responsibility. And is there ever a time that you feel tired? Or does that when you hear someone make comment, does that give you the like, the drive to go? No, you know, I can do better? Because I’m listening to you. And I’m going well, that’s tiring. That’s a lot of work. 

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  52:06

Yeah. Well, you know, it’s funny, because I find it sometimes to be inhibiting, you know, it makes me take longer to do things, because I’m always so careful. As a result, you don’t see me on Facebook or in these Facebook groups, because which you would think, well, that’s the place that you would really want to be like, hey, no, to this, but then you end up recognising that I end up spending way too much time trying to educate the masses. And I’m like, No, you know, that’s how I can try, 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  52:36

I totally get it. Look, and I don’t engage either. Even, I don’t have the responsibility that you do. But as someone who is an advocate for the music, at the very least, and the responsibility that comes with that, I still don’t engage either, because I find it’s just too much. And sometimes I’m shocked to read what I read in some of those forums, I just can’t believe people think like that. But anyway, we’re not going to go into that. We’re going to have a little change of pace here. However, I want you to talk about a couple of things that are near and dear to you. One of them is your performance career, and then we’re going to talk about soul ingredients. Or maybe we should talk about soul ingredients first, because that’s kind of a natural segue from this, to let’s What is it about soul ingredients? Where did all of that come about? It’s a trademarked methodology that you have developed. So tell us about that.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  53:43

So soul ingredients was my effort of bringing together all the research that I’ve done about gospel music and so music and voice pedagogy and Voice Science and apply pedagogy into creating this curriculum for as I was saying, how do we create a formalised pedagogy or formalised system for teaching people in a way that’s going to still keep them culturally viable and authentic to themselves? So a lot of the soul ingredients, methodology aspects or whatever components had to do with saying, Okay, what are the ingredients of soul? Like I, you know, I tell people all the time, it’s not recipes. Okay? Do this first, do this second, do this third, right? It’s not a methodology in that way. But it’s systematic in the sense of saying, Okay, well, these are the areas that you need to focus on. Right? Focus these broad areas like anatomical awareness, you need to know what your instrument is does, so that you can understand how to navigate it accordingly. voice training or voice fitness or voice conditioning, however you want to say when you’re really taking the time to enhance and develop the instrument itself. That’s very different. To me, the from stylistic conditioning or style conditioning, where you’re developing the voice to maintain a certain style characteristic. So or some sort of vocal behaviour that may be more aligned with this particular style. And then looking at that song interpretation or story development as the fourth component. So, these become very specific categories for which ones to can develop. However, there’s not necessarily well you have to reach this point of academic of anatomical awareness before you go into this and then you have to, you know, it’s not that, it’s just that okay, you’re going to work on your arms now in the gym, okay, now you’re gonna work on your legs, okay, well, your cardio exercises, and then when you start to categorise the pedagogic concepts in those ways, then you can create individualised training sessions. 

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  55:51

That is different to a lot of other methodologies, because it sounds like you’re teaching your method, but you’re meeting the student at where they’re at. So it’s a lot more student centric, and then a lot of others because that’s always my thing with methods is that you do week one is this week two is that and we’re all different, essentially.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  56:14

It’s definitely not one size fits all. And I think, you know, coming out of somatic voiceworks livingtree myth that is really where that’s rooted. I mean, Jeannie levitre, is the one who helped me really codify even my dissertation. And the one that challenged me to say, do not create another method based out of classical music, just create something new. So having that kind of mindset and having that pedagogy background from Jeannie, you know, her methodology of functional training, and really looking at registration and really looking to address the voice for what it is, and what is doing, really created a foundation for my approach to soul ingredients, my approach to working to having this kind of student centred model. So when I’m doing these two teacher training programmes, like when science meets soul, one of that or any of my weekend, intensives that I do that are all based on different genres. The goal is how do I lead teachers into this student centred approach within a formal structure? You know, that’s basically what it is that we’re doing well, how do you listen to this person and pick out these aspects that you need to that you want to develop? How do you guide them through these modules? If you call it I don’t even like call them modules? Because it still implies that they’re one another? Yes, absolutely. No, but in these categories, and that’s basically what so ingredients ends up being is, here’s the strategies to get people to start thinking about themselves, emotionalism, emotional aspects, thinking about what what do I sound like? What do I sound like? How do I, as a teacher, listen to a singer? And say, alright, based upon how they’re presenting themselves in front of me, what are the expectations? What things are going to be what’s natural? And how far is it away from where they want to go? Versus them coming into the room and saying, Well, this is where you need to be?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  58:09

Yes. And I mean, the other thing with students is they present one way one day, and then the next week, they come in with a whole new set of problems based on how they’re feeling because you can’t separate the mind the emotions and a bad day and everything else that’s gone on in their lives from the previous week, and have that impacts on their voice too. That’s always a consideration, isn’t it? Absolutely. So within putting your method together within solid ingredients, do you believe you have found then the secret ingredients to finding authenticity within the singer?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  58:47

I think I’m finding the collection of ingredients that works. You know, and I say that finding because it’s still in process. I you know, I don’t think that I’ll ever find the ingredient because I think the ingredient is going to be you know, student centred. It’s going to be different for different people. But the more that I work to develop the methodology, the more I’m finding different approaches to explaining things, the more I’m starting to bring in more considerations, the more experience I have with categorising, loosely, different personality types, yes, you know, different body types, and how both of those body types and personality types work together, you know, to create certain consistencies. So no, there’s no one ingredient, but I do recognise that you know, like, how many different ways is there to make chicken how many flavours you want to add? How many ways can you season chicken right? Which one is the right one? Well, it depends on who you’re talking to. Right that I think that that’s at the end of the day, that’s what I’m finding I’m really opening up the spice cabinet to say wow, oh, you like spicy food. Well, have you tried? Oh, you don’t like spicy but you like spicy The food’s right.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:00:04

I love that you said that it’s ever evolving, because that too separates your methodology from others because most methodologies are fixed. And you’re saying this is evolving, and you’ll continue looking for the secret, you continue to grow and learn yourself. And that’s so important. Because the other consideration too, it’s not just the people in front of us are evolving. As human beings, we’re forever evolving. But so is music. Right? Music is a landscape that’s always changing as well. So I think to be stuck is really limiting, isn’t it?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:00:46

Well, I tell you, I think within the sole ingredients, right? If the sole ingredient is you, then what I’m looking for always is what are the ways to get you to express yourself? And how do you once we’ve figured out what that is? How do we articulate that within the cultural music context? So I feel like in some ways, the methodology doesn’t change. But your approach to it does? Yes, the goal? Yes, hold designation names, you know, but it’s more of like, Hmm, how can I get if this is the path, and it’s so specific to the person that I’m talking to? How do I get them to recognise or guide themselves that first day of lessons I say, I’m telling you right now, I do don’t have a magic wand. I am here to help you teach yourself. So all the way to the way that I’m teaching. I come in, I make the student tell me what are we doing today? What are you working on? What have you tried? What did you discover? What did you discover about yourself, because I can’t teach you how to work, I can’t put your hands on the keys, you’re the only one that knows how your body feels. So I need you to articulate it for me, so that I can help you try to come up with some strategies that will help you feel your body the way you need to do whatever that task is. So you know, that’s a part of the methodology, empowering the student, empowering the person to realise that they are in control of whatever they want to sound like. So it’s really exciting. I mean, I would love to be able to just get all of this stuff out on paper. When you know, I’m always welcome. That always still careful that it just rough, because I’m like, don’t but I mean that they might read this. And they might think that I’m saying that. But I’m not saying that I’m saying. So

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:02:28

it’s being left to interpretation by the reader. And you don’t want that part. That’s the hot bed is the hard part. So yes. And people read it with their biases. Yes. Thank you human beings. So, finishing university, so within your new job, and you also still at Princeton, do you bring that into that teaching environment? Or is that a completely different environment for you?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:02:56

No, I’ll tell you what’s interesting, particularly about this semester is because they Princeton, Princeton doesn’t have a performance degree. So I could use this methodology just freely, right, without any sense of accountability. And that makes sense. Because like no juries, now. Whereas this time in this new school, where all of the majors are, you know, r&b singers, and rappers and whatever, but they’re all majors. They’re all music majors. And they have juries at the end of the year, it’s really forced me to bring my methodology into a model of assessment, because you know, I have to grade them, yet, I still want it to be student centre. So one of the things that I’ve developed is this kind of sense of transparency. I keep notes for them on Google Drive. And each day, like when I say, so for the first week of first lessons, or whatever, you know, same 10 lessons, when we’re discovering something and I say, Okay, well, if you can’t come up, like, this is my lesson. I don’t know, four or five, you know, we’re exploring all these different things. And I say, if you had to come up with three things that you have to remember, before you open your mouth, what would that be for you? And then they’ll say, you know, some people will say, Oh, okay, I have to remember to keep my mouth open. Oh, I have to make sure that would be one. I have to make sure my tongue feels like a mountain. Like these are their words. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, like that, you know, or someone says that they have to picture a rainbow. You know, I don’t really care what they say.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:04:26

What about unicorns? Have you had those? 

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:04:29

I’ve had rainbows, I’ve had mounds I have bloating, I have my tongue is not there. I’m you know, all these different sensations, okay. But whatever they say, I type it into this Excel file or slash Google Sheet. Yes. And then we highlight it. And you know, some of them because some of them don’t have like, everybody didn’t have the same thing they have to worry about. Right. So once they have their technique, based in science, obviously because we’re going through the whole anatomy and we’re going Are what these things mean? Then I can hold them accountable to what they said. Well, on September 27, you said, I didn’t tell you this. You said based upon what you felt that you had to do A, B, and C. So if jury comes, and I don’t say A, B, and C that you said, works when your body is in order, I’m going to read your quarterly. Accountability to self, Yeah. And then that makes them be more intentional. It makes them be more in control. Oh, okay, I have to keep this flow. I have to do whatever it is, without me saying do it this way? I’m like, No, you said, that’s it this, that that’s what you need. And then at work, right. So those are the kinds of things that I’m finding myself exploring, you know, how do you deal with assessment and how do you grade people based in a quantitative manner, but yet be very so students centre?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:05:55

What a journey? Yes, that was your journey. Okay. Now, what about I know that you’ve returned to performing, I saw that you did a gig in Portugal. And it looked amazing. 

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:06:09

Yes, it was so nice.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:06:11

And you’ve had a big performance career, you’re still performing. And I actually had the opportunity to see you perform at a little venue. Remembering Philly, that is right. Yes, yeah. Yep. So I’ve seen you do your thing. And you are just brilliant. You’re very captivating on stage. And you’ve now finally because we’ve heard about this album for years. Finally, the album was released in August, all or nothing? What was the inspiration for that album?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:06:49

Well, you know, again, like you’re saying, I’ve been waiting to do something for quite some time. And the one of the reasons that I had not done so is because again, that feeling of not fitting, not fitting in on particular genre, right. And then by the time that I decided that, okay, I’m going to just do me, then I was so caught up and like all the publishing and all that kind of stuff that I didn’t really get a chance to do my own work. So all or nothing was really to me to say, you’re going to have everything that I do, or nothing at all. So I wasn’t going to sit and worry about whether or not it was too gospel enough or too r&b enough or too chatty. And yes, yes. You know, whatever. It was going to be all of me I was going to talk about things that meant something to me, those songs that I picked all have legacy influences, like, like people that inspire me to people that I want to inspire, you know, my new

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:07:45

yet because your daughter plays the double bass. Yep, my daughter, she plays double bass playing all over a hot pink case. I’ve seen the harder and it’s his biggest hair. Yes,

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:07:58

yes. It’s beautiful. And you know, the fact that she’s really really thriving. She’s actually playing with the Princeton University Jasmine, she’s a junior in high school. That’s amazing. Oh, she’s thriving, you know, my son is 12 He is just turned 12 You know, he’s performing a he plays trumpet in and guitar, but he’s just literally today got casted as a Latin in their school play like, wow,  a school musical.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:08:27

and you’re not a proud mother…

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:08:35

they are a blessing. They really are. They are wonderful, wonderful. And you know, you can tell that. This is where I was talking about you become that role model. And you have the kids, they see oh, okay, this is what you’re supposed to. Yeah, you know, and they start doing those things accordingly. So it was great to have them on the album. And when Cyrus chestnut and Don Braden, and Kenny Davis, like all these people that are just like Monster musicians, monster musicians, but have the biggest heart. It just made the album, just so worth doing. I’m actually in February, the whole gang, if you will, as we’re going to do a concert or Princeton with my ensemble, my students sample jazz vocal collective. So we’re gonna hold my concert. So hey, there, my students are going to sing like background for me. They’re going to do one section of their own music. But then they’re going to sing with me and my roommate and everything. So it’s going to be wonderful to send you the info because it’s going to be live as well. Oh, wow. Wow, it’s gonna be great. Well, well,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:09:36

when I am going to share if people want to find you, you sold ingredients, you book your album, we’re going to share all those links in the show notes. But I just think you’re an amazing human being. You’re my friend. We’re more than just colleagues. We’ve known each other for a while now. And we always hang out whenever there’s a conference on the There’s a popular people end up with a posse.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:10:08

That is so true.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:10:10

Last I CVT, I think a group, it started out with three of us. And then the next thing that was like 15 of us. How did it get so big?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:10:22

Yes, yes. But I think that is so amazing. Yes. It’s so amazing to just find kindred spirits all over the world. And you know, I’m so happy to have you be able to call you, my friend and be able to collaborate likewise. Wonderful things. So yes,

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:10:38

I’m not very good at doing stuff like that. Is that right? We’re going to get to the last couple of questions here, because it’s very late your time and we don’t want you turning into a pumpkin? Because it’s like, after midnight, there is no Yeah,

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:10:55

it is. Okay, for a change. You’re not waking up at like three o’clock in the morning.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:11:02

I know. And can I say this is the first time you and I have had a meeting where I’m not in my gym gear. And I’m always and for some reason, I’ve always got my St. Thomas, my hot pink, and Thomas single time. That happens, but anyway. Yeah. So Okay, last couple of questions. What would be your greatest piece of advice to the singing voice community? As we travel through 2022? What can we do better?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:11:37

I think we can value each other better. I think we can value our students, I think we can value ourselves. I think we can value process. And I think if we just kind of take time to do that. And just to shift the emphasis from the product to the process, and add just more value to the process, I think we’ll be able to just have a much more enriched life. So we are not in our students are not waiting to get to the end before they can share themselves. Yeah, so that would be said, It’s my biggest advice.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:12:13

And based on our earlier discussion about the responsibility that you feel, what would be your legacy? What would you like people to remember you by I know, that’s really profound. Even field children, you know, the community at large, what would be your legacy?

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:12:34

I think my legacy would be anyone that came through my work or through me, had the courage to believe in themselves, and had the courage to, again, the sense of value that you are wonderfully made. I think that is the biggest thing if I can share that with anybody, if I can make them feel better about themselves, if I can make them feel worthy. Because a lot of people don’t feel worthy, they don’t feel valued. They feel like they have to strive to be something that would be my legacy is, you know, whether it’s through my pedagogy, whether it’s music, whether through my children, yeah, just really, really knowing that you’re wonderfully made. And you know, you’re beautiful, just the way you are. And that would be the legacy

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:13:21

that is just so beautiful. Makes me want to cry and welling up here. I suppose because I actually that resonates with me, you know what you’ve just said, I’ve just thought about as a mother too. And as someone in my family, the first person to be educated and it’s just like, you know, you can do anything in life you put your mind to, you are good enough. You are worth that you are worthy. You are worth the effort.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:13:50

Yes, yes. And yes, yes.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:13:54

Okay. Well, I’m going to let you go to nice because it’s very late. And I promise you love you so much. I learned back and hopefully I will see you in Vienna. Yes, I was in Vienna for sure. For sure. For sure. Yes. I’m going to see how big we can make the policy. Right. Let’s do. Is Irene going? I mean, you know, topic. No, she is not going on. I did see her and I asked her and I said it won’t be the same because she’s always been my travelling buddy.

Dr Trineice Robinson-Martin  1:14:30

Yeah, I’ll be your travelling buddy. What?

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith  1:14:34

We’ll have to collaborate then and work out where we’re staying and that kind of food. Okay, okay, I’m up for it. So we’re going to share all your information, your album, your soul ingredients, where they can find you too nice. Everything about you. I truly appreciate you. I appreciate you giving me your time and our listeners for being honest, so candid, you know means a lot Thank you so much for listening to this episode of a voice and beyond. I hope you enjoyed it as now is an important time for you to invest in your own self care, personal growth and education. Use every day as an opportunity to learn and to grow so you can show up feeling empowered and ready to live your best life. If you know someone who will also be inspired by this episode, please be sure to copy and paste the link and share it with them. Or share it on social media and use the hashtag a voice and beyond. I promise you I am committed to bringing you more inspiration and conversations just like this one every week. And if you would like to help me, please rate and review this podcast and cheer me on by clicking the subscribe button on Apple podcast right now. I would also love to know what it is that you most enjoyed about this episode and what was your biggest takeaway? Please take care and I look forward to your company next time on the next episode of a voice and beyond.

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